Big legs WITHOUT squats?

[ThePman]

Weight had nothing to do with his reasons for not squating. Being a long than normal frame I to had stopping squating many years ago for the same reasons. What the top guys/gals in any sport are doing has absoulte relevance to anyone embarking into a sport. Why would you want to re-invent the wheel. The differing factors would be commitment/talent/genetics/will to win/ abilty to manage risk .... all things not easily quantifiable but individually administered.

http://www.dorianyates.net/dorian/site/ ... .php?t=600

You don't put a novice powerlifter on an elite-level MS Sheiko routine. You don't take a novice sprinter and have him doing Usian Bolt's workloads. There's a difference in what develops an athlete from the beginner stages and what keeps that athlete improving into top-level performances. Bodybuilding is no different.

If you think that it's advisable to tell novices not to squat/deadlift/etc, and your justification is to point to a man that squatted for many years and then dropped the exercise when he reached an advanced level, I don't know what else to say except that I disagree strongly.

[Bobsta]

If you had to choose only one exercise for the legs then your best option is Squats.

When anyone first starts a weight training program they often do (or should do) a routine with only a few basic compound exercises, keeping the volume low. i.e Squats, Bench press, bent over row, pull up... A couple of sets of each a couple of times a week will produce great results. In this routine squat is a great choice as the only exercise done for the legs,

As P-man mentioned it gives you the most bang for your buck and it builds a solid overall foundation for future.

Most bodybuilders later on once they've built a good solid base move on to more complicated routines giving each body part its own day, when your doing an hour or so just for legs you can choose a veriety of execises that hit those wheels from every angle and therefore including squats in your routine is not necessary anymore and it would be more of a personal prefrence.

Again if you had to do only one exercise for them legs make sure its the big ol' Squat :nod:

[EMC]

pro bodybuilders are a testiment that you dont need to squat/deadlift to have big legs or a big back. there are heaps of powerlifters that look like twigs. if some noob came up to you and said do i need to be huge to have a big deadlift, squat or bench what would you say pman?

You think pro bodybuilders don't squat or deadlift? Or never did at any point in their entire careers? Did you really just say that?

yes i just said that. your saying if you squat or deadlift once in your life your gunna hold that to someones success? why do the ones that use to squat stop? i dont think they all got injuries did they?sigh.. as the years are progressing and bodybuilding is as i stated continues to 'change' there are less and less people squatting, but somehow theyre getting bigger and bigger? **news just in** deadlifting is now officially a powerlifting exercise.

^last post

[Beef]

^last post

thank god

[Optimass]

You don't put a novice powerlifter on an elite-level MS Sheiko routine. You don't take a novice sprinter and have him doing Usian Bolt's workloads.

Everything is relative mate - of course you wouldn't ... but the pros followed a pathway of progression and whilst most average people will never attain that level of intensity and volume of training - they can certainly apply logic based on what training or exercises have gotten a superior athlete from a to b. The topic of discussion .... is it possible to grow big legs without squats ... not what end of the scale you fit into.

IMO squats are definately a good starting point but not the end of the road - I feel strongly about this :nod:

[ThePman]

pro bodybuilders are a testiment that you dont need to squat/deadlift to have big legs or a big back. there are heaps of powerlifters that look like twigs. if some noob came up to you and said do i need to be huge to have a big deadlift, squat or bench what would you say pman?

You think pro bodybuilders don't squat or deadlift? Or never did at any point in their entire careers? Did you really just say that?

yes i just said that. your saying if you squat or deadlift once in your life your gunna hold that to someones success? why do the ones that use to squat stop? i dont think they all got injuries did they?sigh.. as the years are progressing and bodybuilding is as i stated continues to 'change' there are less and less people squatting, but somehow theyre getting bigger and bigger? **news just in** deadlifting is now officially a powerlifting exercise.

^last post

I see, so if I point out SHW powerlifters and strongmen that effectively do nothing but squat and have muscle mass on par with IFBB pros, what does that tell you?

Exercise selection is probably the last variable to worry about in the scheme of things, but this "bodybuilding or powerlifting" schism is pretty nonsensical if you actually understand what's happening.

[ThePman]

Everything is relative mate - of course you wouldn't ... but the pros followed a pathway of progression and whilst most average people will never attain that level of intensity and volume of training - they can certainly apply logic based on what training or exercises have gotten a superior athlete from a to b. The topic of discussion .... is it possible to grow big legs without squats ... not what end of the scale you fit into.

IMO squats are definately a good starting point but not the end of the road - I feel strongly about this :nod:

Right, and I've said that from my first post, so I'm not sure why there was even a disagreement on that particular point.

My comments about squatting have been discussing the specific detail of an individual's relative level of development.

[Optimass]

may be so .... May be I have taken it out of context

[Optimass]

wheelers legs were the same size and he never used heaps of poundages. even better do you know any powerlifter that can leg press 2500 pounds? wheres that translation in his squat?

Probably not the best comparison - Flex Wheelers genetics were exceptional for building muscle. I remember reading somewhere that a number of top pros were tested for the presence of myostatin and his was exceptionally lower than the others.

[soundsgood]

I dont really get off on posting up rehashed stuff Ive read online somewhere else, prefer to talk about stuff I see with my own eyes. Using genetic freaks like Yates and wheeler as examples proves nothing cos NO-ONE in this country is on par with them aside from Moe and maybe Steve Orton.

Personally I think if your wanna foot it in the heavier weight divisions on stage, Squats are the be all and end all of Leg size.

My leg trains vary between low, medium and high reps but always revolve around squats as my main exercise with leg press and extensions as secondarys.

Grant has packed on serious size the last year using heavy ass squats and even though Nathan doesn't go heavy he does some serious high reps (we are talking 100 reps ass to ground with 60kg 3-4 sets)

Maybe you should drive down to Rotorua some times and watch Darren squatting 260kg for 12 reps. Theres a recent video on Mike K online where he's hitting PBs in the squat rack and his legs have never looked better.

Point Im making is if you want to be a joe average run of the mill gym guy, by all means have fun pushing your leg press up and down, but if you wanna take home some medals, get under the squat rack and learn to love it. :grin:

[Beef]

**news just in** deadlifting is now officially a powerlifting exercise.

:shock: honest to who?

[startinfromscratch]

grover called me a joe blow :shock:

:pfft:

[big MAC]

This thread makes my head hurt.

For the vast majority of you, you should squat and deadlift. It will only do you good.

One or two of you should whack yourselves in the head with a dumbell.

[rose]

One or two of you should whack yourselves in the head with a dumbell.

I don't think it would help.

[Loochi]

Lol ok Big MAC

[olympia]

Wow. Thanks to all of you who have given advice on the subject. From what i can tell 80% of you say squats are number 1 but provided i overload on other excercises it can be done. Some very clued up guys on here and has been great reading through it all. Guess ill stick with my current routine and hope my arse dont get to big from the heavy squats.

[rose]

I reckon your arse will stop growing. It's probably not even that big anyway, i.e. you think it is but in actual fact it's just a hot bum :grin:

[soundsgood]

Yeah it definately increases size of glutes too.

You know you've made it when you have to get every pair of pants you buy altered to suit you :doh: :pfft:

[olympia]

I reckon your arse will stop growing. It's probably not even that big anyway, i.e. you think it is but in actual fact it's just a hot bum :grin:

Yeah ive noticed a few of the girls in the gym looking at me with that jealous bitchy look

[rose]

Yeah ive noticed a few of the girls in the gym looking at me with that jealous bitchy look

Heh, everyone always hating on the glutes :pfft:

[Viking Power]

This thread makes my head hurt.

For the vast majority of you, you should squat and deadlift. It will only do you good.

One or two of you should whack yourselves in the head with a dumbell.

LMFAO

[Viking Power]

This thread makes my head hurt.

For the vast majority of you, you should squat and deadlift. It will only do you good.

One or two of you should whack yourselves in the head with a dumbell.

LMFAO

[Optimass]

I know I'm just being controversial but this is quite a good read ...

BULGARIAN LEG TRAINING SECRETS

By Angel Spassov, Ph.D., D.Sc. and Terry Todd, Ph.D.

Almost a decade ago, a retired Soviet hammer thrower came to the conclusion that traditional forms of squatting were not the best way to strengthen the muscles of the thighs and hips. Many in the Soviet Union considered this heresy, as the squat was the king of leg training in that country just as it was, and is still, in the United States.

Ten years ago, the full squat was the foundation of exercise programs for almost all elite athletes in the Soviet Bloc nations, whether they were weightlifters or not. Soviet athletes - be they wrestlers, runners, fencers, soccer player or swimmers - all squatted. But because the retired hammer thrower had won the gold medal in the 1976 Olympic Games and because he was a respected graduate of the Central Institute for Physical Education and Sport in Moscow, his opinions were taken seriously. His name: Anatoly Bondarchuk. His studies led him to conclude that a particular form of what we'll call the high step-up had two significant advantages over the standard back squat. Bondarchuk concluded that high step-ups, firstly, produce greater gains in thigh and hip power and secondly, cause fewer injuries.

Bondarchuk does his research and coaching in Kiev. His fellow Soviet coaches and sports scientists were skeptical about his conclusions. However, as time passed and he was able to convince a few athletes and coaches, in a variety of sports, to drop squats from their routines and adopt the high step-up, it became clear that be had made a significant breakthrough. Many of the athletes using his "new" exercise began to make gains in power that were far beyond what they had made using only the squat.

We qualify the word "new" because, in one form or another, the step-up has a fairly long history. A review of dozens of pre-1900 books in the Physical Culture Library at the University of Texas revealed that the step-up was commonly practiced before the turn of the century. In fact, Dr. Dudley Allen Sargent, who was for years the director of physical training at Harvard University, used a form of the step-ups as he was devising one of the first known methods of cardiorespiratory testing. Sargent's method, first used over 80 years ago, is called the Harvard Step-Up Test. It involves stepping up, at a timed pace, onto a bench or chair approximately 20 inches high for a set period of time and checking the pulse rate at predetermined intervals.

But the step-up was also used to strengthen and develop the hips and thighs. As weight training grew in popularity in the 1920s and '30s, the step-up with extra weight began to appear in books and magazines of that era. However, the squat with added weight was also given an enormous boost in America during this same era thanks to several crucial factors: Firstly, the wonderful lifting of the young German immigrant "Milo" Steinborn, who could do a full squat with more than 500 pounds, secondly, the publicity given to Milo's world-record-breaking abilities in weightlifting, and finally, the career of Joseph Curtis Hise, who not only gained a great deal of strength and muscle size with high-rep squats but also had the ability to fill other bodybuilders with enthusiasm for this arduous but effective form of training.

Who knows whether the step-up with weights would have become more popular had Steinborn and Hise not appeared on the scene and raised the reputation of the deep knee bend, putting it at the top of any serious trainer's list of "must" exercises? In any event, the squat became the dominant hip and thigh exercise in America in the 1920s and has remained so ever since.

SQUAT-CHALLENGED

When the Eastern European nations, led by the Soviet Union, began to assert themselves athletically after World War II, one cornerstone of their success was the squat. For a time, they turned to the West, particularly the United States, for training theory; but as the years passed and they developed their own coaches and sports scientists, they began to rely more and more on their own research. It was this tradition of self-reliant research that led Anatoly Bondarchuk to challenge the supremacy of the squat.

One thing Bondarchuk concluded was that the heavy back squat was potentially dangerous to the structure of the lower back. In fact, according to his studies, it can be demonstrated that the back squat places a load on the structure of the lower back that, in the bottom position, is at least twice as heavy as the load on the bar. In other words, if you are lifting 300 pounds in the full squat, your lower back is stressed to an amount equaling at least 600 pounds, usually more. The actual amount depends on the speed of descent and ascent. The faster you descend and the faster you reverse direction and begin to arise from the bottom, the greater the load on the lower back and, according to Bondarchuk, the greater the chance of injury.

Bondarchuk also noticed that athletes who were pushing for those extra few reps on a set of squats almost always sank an extra inch or so at the bottom in order to get a bit of "bounce" to push them through the sticking point of the exercise. For this reason, and because he observed that in no sport did the athlete ever find himself in the normal full-squat position, Bondarchuk concluded that it would be safer to use a form of weighted step-up.

When he began his research, he was unsure of several things. He wasn't sure how high the bench or chair, onto which the athlete would step, should be. As he began to experiment with different heights, he soon realized that he could achieve complete development of the thighs and hips by using varying bench heights, depending on the needs of the individual athlete. Being well-schooled in anatomy and physiology, he understood that the higher the bench, the more stress would be placed on the hamstring muscles on the rear of the thigh. Conversely, he understood that a lower bench would result in more work being required of the quadriceps muscles on the front of the thigh.

Finally, he concluded that the ideal position generally occurred when the athlete was standing on the toes of one foot with the other foot flat on the bench and the top of the raised thigh parallel to the floor. If, however, the athlete was weak in the hamstring area, he should use a slightly higher bench. According to research done by Osse Aura, a professor of biomechanics at the Finnish Institute of Physical Education, the hamstring muscles should be approximately 75% as strong as the quadriceps muscles. If that ratio is not maintained, the chance of injury increases, while the chance of maximum performance decreases. Bondarchuk agrees with Aura's figures and uses a form of the leg curl and leg extension to determine the relative strength of these two muscle groups. If he finds the quadriceps of a certain athlete to be too strong, he will instruct that athlete to use a higher than normal box height and thus place more stress on the hamstrings. If, on the other hand, an athlete's hamstrings are too strong, the box height will be lowered so that the quadriceps may be stressed more completely.

Obviously, since an athlete cannot do a high step-up with even 50% of the weight he or she can use in the full squat, the problem of the "double loading" stress on the lower back is greatly reduced. The lower back experiences far less stress when an athletes does a high step-up with 100 pounds than when he does a squat with 300 pounds, assuming that both of these lifts are maximum efforts. Also, since it would be impossible for an athlete to "bounce" out of the bottom position in the high step-up, this exercise completely eliminates the problem of the bounce. This is an important consideration since the complete full squat, especially when done with a "bounce," is potentially harmful to the structure of the knee.

HOW IT'S DONE

The high step-up starts out similar to the regular squat. The weight is placed on a standard bar and the bar is placed on a squat rack as would be the case with a squat. But then things are different. Before squatting, normally you step backward, but with the high step-up you move forward, toward the platform onto which you will step. But if your gym isn't set up to allow you to step forward, don't be concerned. Simply be careful as you position yourself for the step-up. You may need to construct a box if you can't find a bench or sturdy chair of the proper height. And if you have a box or chair that's a bit too tall, don't forget that you can use a 100-pound or 45-pound plate under your bottom foot. Or, for that matter, you can use pieces of plywood to achieve the exact position you need. You should also be careful to keep your shoulders more or less over your hips as you step up onto the box or bench; don't bend forward at the waist in order to do the step-up. Also, slightly bend the knee of the leg onto which you lower yourself. It takes some of the shock out of the descent and is a bit safer.

Several years ago the Bulgarian weight lifting team began to drop all back squatting in favor of high step-up. By that time, many Soviet lifters had abandoned squats and made their higher lifts in the snatch and clean and jerk than ever before. Perhaps the most dramatic example of this involves the career of Leonid Taranenko, the current holder of the world record in the clean and jerk in the superheavyweight class. Taranenko has done the clean and jerk with the amazing weight of 586 pounds. Think of it! Almost 600 pounds lifted from the floor to full arms' length overhead. But to many longtime lifters in this country, it is perhaps even more amazing than it has been at least four years since Taranenko has done a back squat of any kind. Besides his practice on the snatch and clean and jerk, the only form of heavy leg training that Taranenko does is the high step-up with weights…Heavy weights. His best in this exercise is three reps with each leg with 396 pounds. Taranenko's coach, Ivan Loginovich, one of the foremost trainers in the Soviet Union, was one of the coaches who worked with Bondarchuk to perfect the high step-up and use it as a replacement for the back squat; and one of the proofs found in this particular pudding is Taranenko's many world records.

One thing coaches in the Soviet Union and Bulgaria noticed was that those athletes, both lifters and those in other sports, who dropped the squat and used the high step-up developed more complete muscularity than those who simply squatted. Many of the coaches say that the legs of those who work hard on the high step-up look more like those of someone who did sprinting and jumping as well as squatting. Apparently, the balance required in the high step-up calls more muscles into play, producing fuller, shapelier development.

WORKING THEM IN

As far as how to work the exercise into your training routine, one way would be simply to eliminate squats and replace them with the high step-up, using the same sets and reps and handling as much weight as you could in the step-up. Another way, if you have a desire to push your strength levels up several notches, would be to do the high step-ups as the Bulgarian National Lifting Team does them, which is as follows (assuming that the athlete can do a maximum of two reps in the high step-up with 170 pounds):

1. Begin with one set of 8-10 reps with no weight, and

2. Proceed to 45 pounds for six reps (45x6), 110x3. I32x3, 150x3, l60x3 for three sets, 135 x6 for three sets and sets of 115x3 to failure.

The Bulgarian team uses the pulse rate as a gauge to let them know how far to take the sets. They believe that each of the moderate to heavy sets should produce a pulse rate of 162-180 beats per minute. The lifter doesn't begin his next set until his pulse has dropped to between 102 and 108. The Bulgarian team does virtually this same workout five or six days a week, along with quite a lot of other leg work that goes with the snatch and the clean and jerk. Unless you are young (21 or below) and in unusually good condition, we don't recommend that you do such a demanding workout without at least one day of rest between sessions.

If these low repetitions don't appeal to you and you'd like to stick with more traditional approach for step-ups, you might simply do several sets of progressively heavier warm-ups, go to three heavy sets of six reps, and finish off with three lighter sets to failure, aiming for 15-20 reps per set. And if that doesn't give you a super pump, you need to have your oil checked.

If you do adopt either of these routines, we suggest you drop all other heavy lower body exercises such as leg presses, front squats and hack squats. You could continue with leg extensions and leg curls and, of course, with calf work, but you should be careful not to overtrain. The trick in all exercise programs is to do enough to stress the muscles so that they become larger and stronger, but not so much that they can't recover in time for the next heavy session.

Give this result-producing exercise a try. It has literally worked wonders with the strength and power athletes in Eastern Europe, and with their bodybuilders as well, most of whom swear by the high step-up. Make no mistake, squats are a wonderful, effective exercise: but perhaps the high step-up can allow you to make even more gains than you could with squats alone. It's worked out that way in the iron game behind the Iron Curtain.

[olympia]

:rockout: Yeah that was awesome!!! Cheers Optimass

Im going to try them for 12 weeks and see how i go.

[Optimass]

:rockout: Yeah that was awesome!!! Cheers Optimass

Im going to try them for 12 weeks and see how i go.

I hope you understand I am not encouraging you not to squat :pfft: - because you probably should ...

but its just another angle. swapping squats for high step ups is a significant paradigm shift - and the article was first published in 2002. There is a lot of logic in there but even so I am just starting to enjoy squats now I have put on enough mass to effectively move the weight and will not be dropping them out in the near future.