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Recovery!! How does it work?

groovy

By groovy
in Bodybuilding & aesthetics

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agent86 Member

agent86

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Groovy wrote:

Hi all. I was just thinking about it, how does it really work?

All i think i know is that generally the older you get the longer it take for the body to recover from training. Right?

Does having lower body fat affect recovery (say <10% or so), also vice versa?

Obviously if ur on the juice it provides better recovery. Right?

I just wanted to get an idea about it in Body building perspective. I hope u know what im trying to ask.

Recovery is the time to recover from training and yes usually the older you are the harder to recover. Test levels will affect recovery. Usually the higher they are the better recovery. I don't think fat levels affect recovery.

The usual theory is to train intensly and then allow time for that muscle to recover and grow hence the usual scheme of training each bodypart once a week.

Then comes total physical and mental recovery which is like a bank account. Once you withdraw all the funds there is nothing left to spend and you go into overdraft. Too much work can push you into this state. All outside activities such as sports, dancing or work can affect this expenditure.

Recovery is very important for a bodybuilder and sometimes one of the hardest things to get right.

I tend to follow the Max OT principle of limiting warmup sets and concentrating on my maximum weighted set. On subsequent exercises I do limited warmup and go straight to a maximum. Other people follow different philosophies and do high volume training but I seem to go into an overtrained state on this

My opinion only!

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Nik Antunovich Member

Nik Antunovich

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It might be possible through scientific argument to prove that the protein testosterone has inflated everyone's head on this thread! :nod:

Bur, scientific evidence only reaches as far as one's own personal beliefs!

Like to add apart from the fact that eating right and training right, getting enough rest are is very important. Listening to your own body takes a little time and experience but I'm sure we are all capable of that. Over-training is worse than under-training so take time to chill!

Perhaps if you're lean and want to keep fats down just keep up your monounsaturated fats up with other essentials and you'll recover fine. I've even been known to put olive oil in my PWO shake. But I am opinionated eccentric.

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musclenz Veteran member

musclenz

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Nice work guys. 30 posts where about 3-4 say anything constructive & informative. Obviously this is a huge subject, the question of Recovery Time & Over training. It is such a vast subject because of the number of variables that are involved. Some of these have been eluded to with intelligent responses from Pman, Nik & Agent & whether these are opinions based on scientific fact or personal knowledge or experience, it is rather superfluous, because any opinion can be refuted by another study or experience by someone else. This is the beauty of working in this media. The beauty is that people can have opinions & every one should be considered in the process of self enlightenment.

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HumanPerformance Senior member

HumanPerformance

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Something that people here seem to have missed is that recovery from exercise is primarily an immune system response. The metabolic depletion cellular damage,and calcium imbalance (alot more calcium than normal gets forced into the muscle cell) stimulates the "adaptive immune system" to send in immune cells like netrophilus and macrophages. These are some of the exact same immune cells that the body uses to attack bacterial infections- colds,infected cuts etc. The influx of all these cells along with other fluids is what causes the muscle to swell up in the days after a workout. It is this immune system response that signals the body to (hopefully) reconstruct more sarcomeres within the muscle and increase the size and contractile force of the myoflaments and myofibrils in general.

So the next time you perform the exact same workout (provided you have had enough rest and nutrition) your body has built up a certain level of "immunity" to it in the same way it has built up an immunity the particular strain of cold you had over winter :)

Of course during this time you may experience DOMS which is thought to be caused by biochemical changes in the cell which increases the nerve sensitivity.

Good points you raised to musclenz.

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ThePman Senior member

ThePman

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Man I really wish you'd come in with screaming about how opinions beat reality, instead of just posting bad science.

Something that people here seem to have missed is that recovery from exercise is primarily an immune system response.

It'd be better classified as a histological or histo-immune response, because it deals with tissue inflammation.

Even then, this process is only loosely related to actual muscle growth-as-tissue remodeling. It's more a side-effect than a goal.

It is important to keep in mind, in as much as systemic inflammation (especially via cytokines released during exercise) impacts overall recovery status, but that's a separate matter from what's happening at the muscle-level.

It is this immune system response that signals the body to (hopefully) reconstruct more sarcomeres within the muscle and increase the size and contractile force of the myoflaments and myofibrils in general.

No, it isn't. The histo-immune response is only cursorily related to fiber remodeling, if at all - in human fibers there seems to be no real connection between the two barring the fact that they both occur under the same set of conditions (i.e., exercise).

In comparison it has no effect on muscle protein synthesis, which can be signaled quite easily without "damage" to the fibers. That you have to recover from that damage post-workout doesn't mean it has any effect on the actual signals of growth within the muscle fibers.

There's also the repeated bout effect; muscles actually adapt to this transient mechanical damage with repeated sessions, and this doesn't blunt the response of the growth apparatus.

So the next time you perform the exact same workout (provided you have had enough rest and nutrition) your body has built up a certain level of "immunity" to it in the same way it has built up an immunity the particular strain of cold you had over winter :)

Yeah this is just wrong.

Muscles are sensitive to mechanical stimulus more than anything else, and you don't build an immunity to that the same way you do a pathogen. That's like saying you can become immune to a punch in the face.

Of course during this time you may experience DOMS which is thought to be caused by biochemical changes in the cell which increases the nerve sensitivity.

More than likely it's inflammation of the connective tissues and material surrounding muscle fibers. DOMS in itself isn't much more than a correlation with some form of unfamiliar overload in a muscle.

Again, there is something to the inflammation effect as it impacts cumulative recovery across the body, but it's not a muscular matter in and of itself.

Of course, that all comes from actual peer-reviewed science, so that means it's probably wrong because someone on the Internet felt a pump from doing curls.

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musclenz Veteran member

musclenz

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I think most of us have heard the old BBing saying :

"If you're not overtraining, you're undertraining"

I guess a lot of us here fail to make gains because we are not overtraining. I mean that we are not pushing ourselves past a state of fatigue & pain that forces the muscles into a state of peripheral exhaustion which will eventually lead via protein synthesis to hypertrophy. What I believe many of us confuse is the difference of exhaustion at the peripheral muscle level with that at the CNS where the adrenal system has been in play for so long that it results in a complete or partial collapse of the whole nervous system.

Generally, the body sends enough signals to avoid this state being reached so it is difficult to get there with just training alone. There are many other factors that contribute such as nutrition, rest, mental state, lifestyle etc before "overtraining" results.

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HumanPerformance Senior member

HumanPerformance

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It'd be better classified as a histological or histo-immune response, because it deals with tissue inflammation.

Histological?? Do you even know what that means?

Wiki states-refers to thin slices of tissue applied to a microscopic slide, and Histology is the study of microscopic anatomical structures. Did you make up this word yourself? Or maybe you have the term confused with Histamine?

It is important to keep in mind, in as much as systemic inflammation (especially via cytokines released during exercise) impacts overall recovery status, but that's a separate matter from what's happening at the muscle-level.

So you agree that the inflamation impacts recovery, are you aware that this "inflamation" occurs inside the muscle cell? So can you please expalin to me what the "muscle level is"? Is that something outside the the muscle cell? Or is "The muscle level" simply another term you have manufactured?

.

That's like saying you can become immune to a punch in the face.

Have you not ever seen the brow of a long term competitive boxer or kickboxer?The body lays down calcification deposits over time to thicken the front of the skull,as do a kickboxers shins and elbows.

More than likely it's inflammation of the connective tissues and material surrounding muscle fibers. DOMS in itself isn't much more than a correlation with some form of unfamiliar overload in a muscle.

No according to Dr. John M Beradi,Ph.d who regularly writes for T nation. who has earned a doctoral degree from the University of Western Ontario (2005) with a specialization in the area of exercise biology and nutrient biochemistry. But im sure you are more knowledgable than him .

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ThePman Senior member

ThePman

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Histological?? Do you even know what that means?

Wiki states-refers to thin slices of tissue applied to a microscopic slide, and Histology is the study of microscopic anatomical structures. Did you make up this word yourself? Or maybe you have the term confused with Histamine?

Histological was a slip. Histo-immune, which as you've astutely gathered comes from the histamine response as it relates to the immune system. It's mainly referring to tissue-level inflammation responses, to distinguish it from the circulating disease-fighting immune system.

So you agree that the inflamation impacts recovery, are you aware that this "inflamation" occurs inside the muscle cell?

Inflammation can occur in the muscle in response to sufficiently disruptive overload events; that's different from saying it's the causative factor for stimulation of MPS and fiber remodeling. If that were the case, then long-distance running would trigger growth.

What's more relevant here is central signaling from cytokine release; IL-6, IL-1b and TNF-alpha are far more potent signals at the brain-level, and while these modulate protein metabolism locally, you're original "damage => inflammation => growth" model is very outdated and based on animal models to begin with.

So can you please expalin to me what the "muscle level is"? Is that something outside the the muscle cell? Or is "The muscle level" simply another term you have manufactured?

It's the level at which the muscle operates, also known as "peripheral level", to differentiate it from systemic or central action. The latter being what I'm discussing as relevant.

Have you not ever seen the brow of a long term competitive boxer or kickboxer?The body lays down calcification deposits over time to thicken the front of the skull,as do a kickboxers shins and elbows.

Adaptation via tissue remodeling doesn't imply immunity. They aren't remotely the same concept, no matter how much you try to equate them.

No according to Dr. John M Beradi,Ph.d who regularly writes for T nation. who has earned a doctoral degree from the University of Western Ontario (2005) with a specialization in the area of exercise biology and nutrient biochemistry. But im sure you are more knowledgable than him .

Dr. John Bacardi, PhD. lol I thought he was the only one that wrote it that way.

In any case:

Myofibre damage in human skeletal muscle: effects of electrical stimulation versus voluntary contraction.

Eccentric contractions leading to DOMS do not cause loss of desmin nor fibre necrosis in human muscle.

Desmin and actin alterations in human muscles affected by delayed onset muscle soreness: a high resolution immunocytochemical study.

The mode of myofibril remodelling in human skeletal muscle affected by DOMS induced by eccentric contractions.

Evidence for myofibril remodeling as opposed to myofibril damage in human muscles with DOMS: an ultrastructural and immunoelectron microscopic study.

Impact of repeated bouts of eccentric exercise on myogenic gene expression.

Impact of repeated bouts of eccentric exercise on sarcolemma disruption in human skeletal muscle.

You'll ideally need the full papers to get the benefit of those, but the point is made.

I suppose Dr. Bacardi PhD's non-reviewed writings for an online supplement company's magazine have more weight than the peer-reviewed research in reputable journals.

Thread needs moar appeals to authority.

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