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The Howly Bag, Sookie Bubba and Bleat Forum

nate225

By nate225
in Bodybuilding & aesthetics

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ThePman Senior member

ThePman

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You all swear by these exercises and some of you even use the juice, but where are all the mass monsters and products of these 'hardcore programs'? You all talk the talk but I only see a few of you walking the walk (getting good results)

What do you define as good results?

If you're only concerned with absolute results, then you're going to run right into the problem of genetic variability and all the confounds that brings up. Not everybody that enters the gym has the potential to become an IFBB pro, and not even drugs will overcome that.

If you're not genetically inclined to be a big jacked guy, there's not a thing you can do about it no matter how much you eat and how hard you lift.

I mean I went from <130 lbs (a hair under 60kg) when I started at age 18 to over 220 lbs (100kg) at my heaviest a few years ago (and that's at 175cm and with small wrists and ankles; I'm not a big guy). Even then I wouldn't have cut it as a bodybuilder, despite having added 40kg.

So I'm not sure what you're looking for exactly.

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Old Bull Veteran member

Old Bull

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Good morning all!

Firstly I have to give credit to OB for the thread title, it's a forum area on the PH forum given to the Oly lifters, one of whom was whining a bit too often! Given the response to the Nutrition rant I decided to plagerise the title! :grin:

When I first read the title I thoughtwtfbanner.gif seen this some where, cracked up when I seen who started it.

Been pretty busy with the BBRo but will chime in next week looks like it has taken off tho Nate.

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steak Veteran member

steak

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LOL at this thread!

my 2c is as above. The vast majority of your lifting should be

squats

bench

deads

bbell row

military press

chins/pulls

dips

eat according to what you want to get from your gym time. youll get stronger/bigger/watever.

oh, and do lotsa gear :pfft: :pfft: :pfft:

You all swear by these exercises and some of you even use the juice, but where are all the mass monsters and products of these 'hardcore programs'? You all talk the talk but I only see a few of you walking the walk (getting good results)

Im not seeing where you are going with this comment...am I to read it as there are no big guys (mass monsters) round here or none that got that way from squats, deads, bench, o/head presses, rows, chins etc....?

If so you are wrong! I also think you'll find that they use these compound exercises as the base for getting big/ger.

What are your stats are how'd you get them?

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rose Veteran member

rose

Posted
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You all swear by these exercises and some of you even use the juice, but where are all the mass monsters and products of these 'hardcore programs'? You all talk the talk but I only see a few of you walking the walk (getting good results)

Get back under your bridge, troll :pfft:

So, the guys posting on this thread are try hard wannabes? :shock: That must be why Nate is off to compete in a strongman comp, Pman is lifting at BBro this weekend, and Steak is, well, gaining LEAN MASS :o Oh I get it now! These people are liars :doh: How dare you people mislead us like that. I'm never squatting or doing another pull up again :snooty: Compound moves are too old school! I knew Men's Health was right! Tricep kickbacks and leg curls here I come!

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nate225 Veteran member

nate225

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You all swear by these exercises and some of you even use the juice, but where are all the mass monsters and products of these 'hardcore programs'? You all talk the talk but I only see a few of you walking the walk (getting good results)

Sounds like a bit of e-rage there Kimura, may need to cut down on your cyber roids! :grin:

On the 'talk the talk' I'll state my case for being allow some airtime. Like PMan I am an ectomorph by nature, well worse really, an ecto that likes to store fat! :grin: I have a very small bone structure and weighed around 65kg when I started in the gym. I am certainly not an Olympian nowdays, but at 5'9" and 105-107 at 15% I'm good enough to compete internationally as an U105 Strongman Competitor. In the past I have also competed in BBing at NZFBB Nationals & in Powerlifting at NZPF Nationals & IPF Oceanias (Just for the record both NZFBB & NZPF were WADA tested at this time; also unfortunately I managed to place second almost every time :cry: lol).

I put my resultant strength and mass gains down to years of dedicated eating & training hard using compound movements.

As for the Mass Monster thing, I'm not sure what you are looking for Kimura?

However if you've ever trained with an IFBB Pro you'll notice they don't spend an eternity playing on machines & cables (as portrayed in popular BBing magazines aka expensive toilet paper :grin: ). Most I would venture to suggest do comparatively more of this later in their 'careers' and have already achieved a certain amount of size. The few straight talking Pro's I have heard from put their mass down to hard, heavy training with compound movements (many even citing their PLing training from the past :grin: ).

Hope thats of use kimura?

Next......

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ThePman Senior member

ThePman

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"What a lot of strength athletes don't understand is that bodybuilding is totally different. A whole different type of hypertophy that requires vastly different exotic training methods that rarely get results and generally require anabolics to break 200lbs. Let me tell you all that building significant muscle mass on a Yoda-esque program using exotic rep schemes on cables and machines, days of dedicated biceps training, with an overbearing focus on trace mineral balance and insufficient caloric intake makes it really hard to put on muscle. These guys have to have it all together to show any appreciable gains.

Guys that eat and are able to rely on basic programs to increase their weights in squats, pulls, and presses doing basic exercises that strengthen the body and force it to adapt with increased muscle have it easy. They will never know what it's like to fight through moronic inefficiency to needlessly differentiate your training and alleviate worry that when you eventually do start gaining weight someday, it will be in perfect symmetry and proportion - all at 2lbs a year."

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nate225 Veteran member

nate225

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"What a lot of strength athletes don't understand is that bodybuilding is totally different. A whole different type of hypertophy that requires vastly different exotic training methods that rarely get results and generally require anabolics to break 200lbs. Let me tell you all that building significant muscle mass on a Yoda-esque program using exotic rep schemes on cables and machines, days of dedicated biceps training, with an overbearing focus on trace mineral balance and insufficient caloric intake makes it really hard to put on muscle. These guys have to have it all together to show any appreciable gains.

Guys that eat and are able to rely on basic programs to increase their weights in squats, pulls, and presses doing basic exercises that strengthen the body and force it to adapt with increased muscle have it easy. They will never know what it's like to fight through moronic inefficiency to needlessly differentiate your training and alleviate worry that when you eventually do start gaining weight someday, it will be in perfect symmetry and proportion - all at 2lbs a year."

PMan, was the above paraphased by Vince Dizenzo, (U.S PLer, 800 lbs. bencher) when he made his now famous quote while trying to settle a dispute about training methodologies!!

"Too many guys are looking for the right program instead of just Smashing Fucking Weights".

I over use that quote but it is beautiful in its simplicity!

I got the following from another forum, a respected NZL PLer (lifting 'elite' totals) added it to a thread on training programming:

Every young guy wants the holy grail of a program that will take them to super stadom.

However there are lots more important things than programs such as:

Having the correct technique in all exercises.

Having the right training crew.

Having the right atmosphere.

Realising that the only important thing is to keep increasing the weight lifter (in same the form) and not getting stuck of the science of otherwise of some program.

Get those things right above and then, maybe, then look at your program.

I remember a conversation a had with one of the best benchers in the world back in 2001. I asked what sort of training do you do, Westside, Periodisation, HIT? He gave me a puzzled look and said. Well I do flat bench on Wednesday around 5 reps and Dumbells on Saturday.

Thought provoking huh?

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steak Veteran member

steak

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they might be thought provoking bro but its the truth...plain and simple!

for me making again in either weight being heavier or more reps from last trains weight at each work out is critical..absolutely life threatening critical :grin: :nod: isnt that how muscle grows anyway....a point often lost in tricep kickbacks and one armed underhand grip pulldowns :lol:

its like if you dont eat shit loads, you wont grow plain and simple. You can refine it to.... if you dont eat big "clean" and regularly you wont grow but thats as about as far as you can take it.

Im liking this thread...its reaffirming all the things I was taught and sweeping away the distractions and allure of the glossy "toilet paper" 8)

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Optimass Veteran member

Optimass

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Ok .... I'm only half way through the first page and considering changing the title to "the Fortune Cookie thread" :grin:

The more I train, the more I read, the more I realise that:

"What works for me, is what works for me" - all that's left is to find what that is!

I think questioning the standard response, and how the answer is arrived at, is important.

This should apply to everything.

There are ways of finding the real answers to questions if you're curious and inclined to look.

deep breath .... :P

On a side note, what would you guys think of as a decent split for an amateur?

Currently:

Mon: Chest/Tri

Tue: Cardio

Wed: Legs

Thur: Shoulders/Traps

Fri: Rest (maybe light run)

Sat: Back/Biceps

Sun: Long Run.

Looks good mate ... not many BBlders run but I think it has it's place. What have your results been like?

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Optimass Veteran member

Optimass

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Ok - confession ....

I seriously can't finish a set on an odd number! has to be 2/4/6/8 or 10 .... etc. My wife thinks I'm borderline obsessive compulsive :shifty:

....

Answer to Question:

Why do you do 10 reps? why not 13 ...... or 3? Why 10? :D

Doesn't matter as long as you reach failure on the last rep :)

Same Pman > i preffer low rep ranges 2 -4 (but not 3-5 :wink: )is a productive set in my exp .... but am I not Pling then?

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nate225 Veteran member

nate225

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Two of the statements I've heard a fair bit that I struggle with are:

* "I'm doing higher reps now to tone my muscle"

* "I'm going to drop the weights back and do 15-20 reps for the month prior to the comp"

Reasons I disagree:

* Resistance training is resistance training, cardio is cardio - don't make life difficult and confuse the two. The earlier to build muscle, the latter is to lose fat (or increase fitness).

* How did that person get the muscle in the first place? As per earlier comments in this thread I'd say mainly from hard, heavy training. Why change a winning formula?

The only pro I can see for the second statement is to decrease the chance of injury? But with good form this risk is mitigated to some degree anyway.

From personal experience I was still squatting 220x5 two weeks out, it was pretty fricken hard, but I'd only dropped 1 rep from my usually top set (faded quick in subsequent sets tho!). Maybe a reflection that I didn't lose a lot of muscle mass dieting (on paper, from skinfolds, I actually gained muscle mass over my 20 week cut! :grin: ).

Any thoughts on the above strategies many seem to adopt? (Note: I'm not really talking about the stage 1 week out, as I know it's a different game here at times with depleting/loading of carbs, water, Na/K etc, besides I'd have to berate myself for the entirely cable based low intensity workout I had last night! :grin: ).

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ThePman Senior member

ThePman

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If you're natural and trying to get in contest shape, then it's definitely a mistake to switch completely over to high-rep stuff. It's basically cardio, yeah. High rep stuff is still heavy enough that you won't totally de-train, but yeah you definitely need to keep some amount of the heavier work in there.

To me it's all about fitting things in within your recovery ability. On a BBer's contest diet, you're not gonna be able to recover from a whole lot. So my thought process is that you'd scale back the volume and frequency of your heavy training and then ramp up all the "cardio" stuff - whether it's high-rep training or whatever else.

Of course the enhanced folks don't have to worry about this so much since one of the benefits of AAS is that they keep protein synthesis switched on full-time in the muscles, so it's easier to get away with dropping the heavy stuff.

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steak Veteran member

steak

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fitting things in within your recovery ability

more good oil right there..common sence prevails again...must not let this thread die :grin:

some say you get "deeper cuts" from the higher reps...truely now.. is it just the extra cadio cranking out 15-20 reps instead of 8? :lol:

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