The Howly Bag, Sookie Bubba and Bleat Forum

[nate225]

Good morning all!

Firstly I have to give credit to OB for the thread title, it's a forum area on the PH forum given to the Oly lifters, one of whom was whining a bit too often! Given the response to the Nutrition rant I decided to plagerise the title! :grin:

With a number of members calling for a similiar discussion on training, and me claiming to have broad shoulders and thick skin (or dim wits!), I have decided to post this thread (without fear of being referred to as one of the "old timers/know it alls on this site" :pfft: ).

The topic is essentially about simplicity vs indepth analysis of training and the pros & cons of each approach, as well as any spinoffs from this such as perceived "silver bullets', training myths unravelled etc.

A wiser man than myself once said (about 24 hours ago in fact!): "Undoubtedly, Life has become more complicated. I guess Nate's provocative dive into Nutrition does not fit with every-BODY on here, but it certainly has prompted some good discussion on the topic. I'm tempted to put up a similar thread on "Training"

Being another "Old Schooler" I think we can learn to unravel & simplify our lives by going "Back to Basics". This can apply to many things in our life...

Just to try and keep things civil and so the thread is beneficial to other forum users can we keep the mudslinging to a minimum and the robust debate to a maximum! :grin: To quote Milkey from my previous thread "No one joins to get berated or the pi$$ taken out of them", I agree.

The floor is yours.....musclenz, PMan, Optimass, Rose, Steak, Roidzilla, Milkey, Agent, NZnomis and any others that have a view on the matter!

[rose]

"Baaaaaaa!" There, I'm done! :pfft:

Bleat: Encyclopedia - Bleat

"Bleat is a noun describing the "baa" vocal noise made by several woolly ruminant quadrupeds, most commonly the Domestic Sheep (Ovis aries), which probably descends from the wild urial of south-central and south-west Asia. It is also a verb meaning to make that noise. Giant pandas also bleat. The word "bleat" arose in the early Middle Ages or earlier by imitating the noise of the sheep... "

[nate225]

"Baaaaaaa!" There, I'm done! :pfft:

Bleat: Encyclopedia - Bleat

"Bleat is a noun describing the "baa" vocal noise made by several woolly ruminant quadrupeds, most commonly the Domestic Sheep (Ovis aries), which probably descends from the wild urial of south-central and south-west Asia. It is also a verb meaning to make that noise. Giant pandas also bleat. The word "bleat" arose in the early Middle Ages or earlier by imitating the noise of the sheep... "

The sheep topic draws many parallel........ one such is the advice I repeatedly see on steroid use here. Usually plays out something like "I'm looking at doing a first course, what should I do?", with the immediate response being take 500mg of test.

Interestingly I note that the question of goals are hardly ever discussed before the answer is given. If the answer was I wanna get strong or I wanna put on 10kg, it might be worth noting that the last few NZ Strongest Man winners (age 21 & 27 at the time) didn't need to resort to 500mg of Test to win, or to put on some serious slabs of muscle. :nod:

Then again if the guy says I wanna be an IFBB Pro within 5 years, the answer could be or "hit the 500mg, and be prepared to spend tens of thousands of dollars over the next few years" (alternately the answer could be "here's the number of a good psychariatrist" :pfft:).

I don't want to start a debate on the amount of gear for a first cycle, however I think questioning the standard response, and how the answer is arrived at, is important.

[ThePman]

I've got no rant for you right up front because frankly there's just too much to cover in one go.

Here's a nugget to kick off some e-rage, though:

Most people training with body-part split routines, trying to copy advanced bodybuilders, have no business doing them.

[rose]

Rose sez simplicity wins! It's my opinion that too many people over analyse training (and nutrition) thereby detracting from desired results, yes, ZOMG, it's true :shock: What, you spent how much time finding the 'perfect' tricep exercise only to wind up doing tricep kickbacks? WTF!

I feel that in-depth analysis should be left to your carefully selected knowledgeable coach/trainer when you're training to peak for something. Instances where analysis and tweaking are required to make a difference.

Until you get to that point? As Vee's t-shirt says, shut the f*ck up and train. Learn the basics. Set your goals. Train. Eat. Sleep. Rinse. Repeat.

Baa.

[rose]

The sheep topic draws many parallel... however I think questioning the standard response, and how the answer is arrived at, is important.

I completely agree. Oh and the sheep is also relevant in that sheeps are simple :pfft:

[Gym rat]

I also completly agree as well as for the the sheep they simple and dumb :pfft: :pfft:

[ThePman]

I think questioning the standard response, and how the answer is arrived at, is important.

This should apply to everything.

How much advice is repeated just because the person giving it heard it somewhere?

There are ways of finding the real answers to questions if you're curious and inclined to look. Nobody does that, though.

[teamfatboy]

The more I train, the more I read, the more I realise that:

"What works for me, is what works for me" - all that's left is to find what that is!

[nate225]

I've got no rant for you right up front because frankly there's just too much to cover in one go.

Here's a nugget to kick off some e-rage, though:

Most people training with body-part split routines, trying to copy advanced bodybuilders, have no business doing them.

:evil: about a e-ragey as I can get lol

"Advanced BBers routines", for a start it's a little murky what these actually are? I'm pretty sure this changes (on paper) every time some sucker parts with $10 for Flex magazine :pfft: "I do a thousand reps for biceps" springs to mind :grin:

However my 10 cents on BBing training, which may or may not be of value, as it is extremely generic:

Newbies: 3-4 days weights, 3-4 body parts per session or even full body, compound exercises focus on form.

Intermediates: 4-5 days, 2-3 body parts per session, refine based on weak points

Advanced: Whatever suits (see TFB's comments), my personal preference is for 5-6 day split, 1-2 body parts, short/intense workouts. ESB guys have had great success with this approach, after having done the base work (mainly through PLing type training). Others such as Mike Kingsnorth have a very different take on this (again TFB's comments apply).

Interestingly with regards to PLing, even most of our top National lifters would only be able to handle a beginner-intermediate Sheiko type programme. Many use a low volume template, as most of our lifters (being Westerners! :grin: ) don't have the capacity to handle the volume yet. Will be interesting to see if anyone progresses to the advanced templates in coming years.

Nate

[rose]

Most people training with body-part split routines, trying to copy advanced bodybuilders, have no business doing them.

"Advanced BBers routines"

:snooty: But I don't want to be a noob! Being a noob means you're piss weak! I want to look like Arnold by xmas! Stuff you, I'm gonna do an advanced bb'ing routine cos that's how I'll get results faster! An article in Men's Health said so! My PT says those tried and true staple exercises from waaay back are for the old school retards who can't keep up with the times! Gosh! Don't you know anything???

[nate225]

Most people training with body-part split routines, trying to copy advanced bodybuilders, have no business doing them.

"Advanced BBers routines"

:snooty: But I don't want to be a noob! Being a noob means you're piss weak! I want to look like Arnold by xmas! Stuff you, I'm gonna do an advanced bb'ing routine cos that's how I'll get results faster! An article in Men's Health said so! My PT says those tried and true staple exercises from waaay back are for the old school retards who can't keep up with the times! Gosh! Don't you know anything???

:pfft: :pfft:

[ThePman]

I've got no rant for you right up front because frankly there's just too much to cover in one go.

Here's a nugget to kick off some e-rage, though:

Most people training with body-part split routines, trying to copy advanced bodybuilders, have no business doing them.

:evil: about a e-ragey as I can get lol

"Advanced BBers routines", for a start it's a little murky what these actually are? I'm pretty sure this changes (on paper) every time some sucker parts with $10 for Flex magazine :pfft: "I do a thousand reps for biceps" springs to mind :grin:

There's no way to really define it strictly, as far as I can see.

You're talking guys with at least 5-10 years of real hard training behind them, with the genes to actually be good at bodybuilding in the first place, and really doing it seriously - actually competing, not just hanging out in the gym.

I admire competitive bodybuilders even as much as I rib on them, because it does take a lot of work to do well. You don't just show up out of the blue and take home trophies.

At the same time, I think a lot of people, whether they're beginners or having been in the gym so long with little/no results that they might as well be, are doing themselves a disservice by trying to copy the routine that said competitor can get away with. You are not them, and odds are copying what they're doing isn't going to bring you the same results.

However my 10 cents on BBing training, which may or may not be of value, as it is extremely generic:

Newbies: 3-4 days weights, 3-4 body parts per session or even full body, compound exercises focus on form.

Intermediates: 4-5 days, 2-3 body parts per session, refine based on weak points

Advanced: Whatever suits (see TFB's comments), my personal preference is for 5-6 day split, 1-2 body parts, short/intense workouts. ESB guys have had great success with this approach, after having done the base work (mainly through PLing type training). Others such as Mike Kingsnorth have a very different take on this (again TFB's comments apply).

This is pretty much how I look at it as well, in the broadest sense. I'd nitpick the details, perhaps, but details are just that, so I don't see any point because it doesn't matter.

I think beginners would do much, much better sticking with a very basic routine that focuses on getting stronger in a few lifts, and repeating it several times a week. But how many guys do you see on here show up weighing all of 60-75kg, talking about how their bench is stalled out? And what routine are they always doing?

Monday: Chest

Tuesday: Biceps

Thursday: Back

Friday: Legs + Shoulders

And each workout is about 10 different exercises for 3 sets of 8-10 reps. Then they wonder why they aren't growing and why their lifts aren't going up. That kind of thing won't make you strong.

A big guy that's been lifting for 10 years and has done his time? Sure, why not. But no beginner has any business messing with that.

I know some natural BBers that use crazy volume on their "bodybuilding" workout days, lots of exercises for sets of 8-10 reps - but they're exactly the kind of more-advanced guys I spoke about earlier. Not only that, but they also rely on "strength" workouts, too, which are more powerlifting-type sessions where they focus on getting strong.

Or look at the DC Training - that's all about getting stronger on basic lifts, even though it's a system for bodybuilding.

There's a diet component too, since most noobs don't know how to eat, either, but the routine isn't helping that along either. Training for a pump isn't gonna get you very far unless you've got something to pump in the first place.

Interestingly with regards to PLing, even most of our top National lifters would only be able to handle a beginner-intermediate Sheiko type programme. Many use a low volume template, as most of our lifters (being Westerners! :grin: ) don't have the capacity to handle the volume yet. Will be interesting to see if anyone progresses to the advanced templates in coming years.

Sheiko workouts are no joke. Even the beginner-level #29-37 routines have volume that most strength-types just aren't used to. I nearly cried after I looked at the CMS/MS and then one of the routines for a world champ (five days per week, two workouts per day).

We also have to consider that developing that kind of work capacity is beyond most people (due to a variety of reasons), for one, and frankly just not necessary unless you're competing at that level.

I'm also not convinced that the highest-level templates are going to be that effective unless you've got Special Russian Medicine, but there's no doubt that people can get away with a lot more volume and frequency than general wisdom has most people believing.

[rose]

but there's no doubt that people can get away with a lot more volume and frequency than general wisdom has most people believing.

Undertraining for fear of overtraining.

[Draft]

I found this all pretty interesting as it all applies to me (this an the nutrition rant). I basically got a pretty bad start to lifting and have been lifting half-arsed for maybe the last 3 years. This is probably the first year I have taken things seriously so I'd say I qualify as a beginner. Basically, I think a lot of it has come down to learning from people who don't really know what they are doing.

On a side note, what would you guys think of as a decent split for an amateur?

Currently:

Mon: Chest/Tri

Tue: Cardio

Wed: Legs

Thur: Shoulders/Traps

Fri: Rest (maybe light run)

Sat: Back/Biceps

Sun: Long Run.

[ThePman]

On a side note, what would you guys think of as a decent split for an amateur?

Newbies: 3-4 days weights, 3-4 body parts per session or even full body, compound exercises focus on form.

Hard to go wrong with that. Get your squat, bench, and deadlift/barbell row moving upwards and it's hard to not grow.

[steak]

Real talk!

Exercises

Bench Press, Squats, Deadlift, Chins and Rows should be the basis of evey BB program.

That is all!

Nutrition

If you wnat to be big eat big.

If you want to be little eat less than you need.

That is all again

[Roidzilla]

LOL at this thread!

my 2c is as above. The vast majority of your lifting should be

squats

bench

deads

bbell row

military press

chins/pulls

dips

eat according to what you want to get from your gym time. youll get stronger/bigger/watever.

oh, and do lotsa gear :pfft: :pfft: :pfft:

[steak]

On a side note, what would you guys think of as a decent split for an amateur?

Currently:

Mon: Chest/Tri

Tue: Cardio

Wed: Legs

Thur: Shoulders/Traps

Fri: Rest (maybe light run)

Sat: Back/Biceps

Sun: Long Run.

stop running and stop cardio ....wot...are you cutting?

1. Legs - Squats, SLDL, Leg Curl, Calf Raises

2. Chest/Biceps - bench press (incline good too - DB or BB) barbell curl

rest

4. Back - deadlifts, bb rows, chins

5. Delts and tris - military press, dumbell press, side lat rise, shrugs, Close grip bench press, skull crushers or pressdowns

Rest

or seen as your not running all over town 2 days a weeks add a day of hammies and calves to let you squat more

2c

[nate225]

LOL at this thread!

my 2c is as above. The vast majority of your lifting should be

squats

bench

deads

bbell row

military press

chins/pulls

dips

eat according to what you want to get from your gym time. youll get stronger/bigger/watever.:

Hard not to agree, same applies to Steak's comments

oh, and do lotsa gear :pfft: :pfft: :pfft:

Optional. Buyer beware!

Definately not my blanket recommendation, but science agrees with RZ if you're in a hurry; unfortunately there are unwanted side effects to consider (although this is a little murkier than most physicians will admit to).

Would be nice if the whole SARMs thing had panned out, all the positive effects of AAS with no side effects (seems a bit pipe dreamish when said aloud! :grin: ).

[steak]

what! you mean it hasnt!?

[Roidzilla]

i should have withheld the gear comment, now the aas section will be overrun with 'my first cycle' threads

most people definitly tend to overcomplicate shit. Example, for leg day, its not uncommon for me to just do squats. back/front/hack. if you can walk properly after 40-50 mins of squatting at decent intensity, your doing it wrong or your name is arnold.

lunges/leg ext/etc all have their place, but if you want growth, youll get it from a squat marathon! imo....

only users lose drugs kids.

[ThePman]

Would be nice if the whole SARMs thing had panned out, all the positive effects of AAS with no side effects (seems a bit pipe dreamish when said aloud! :grin: ).

wut

[KIMURA]

LOL at this thread!

my 2c is as above. The vast majority of your lifting should be

squats

bench

deads

bbell row

military press

chins/pulls

dips

eat according to what you want to get from your gym time. youll get stronger/bigger/watever.

oh, and do lotsa gear :pfft: :pfft: :pfft:

You all swear by these exercises and some of you even use the juice, but where are all the mass monsters and products of these 'hardcore programs'? You all talk the talk but I only see a few of you walking the walk (getting good results)

[Roidzilla]

LOL at this thread!

my 2c is as above. The vast majority of your lifting should be

squats

bench

deads

bbell row

military press

chins/pulls

dips

eat according to what you want to get from your gym time. youll get stronger/bigger/watever.

oh, and do lotsa gear :pfft: :pfft: :pfft:

You all swear by these exercises and some of you even use the juice, but where are all the mass monsters and products of these 'hardcore programs'? You all talk the talk but I only see a few of you walking the walk (getting good results)

your a dick.

where did i say this was a mass monster routine? i didnt realise only pros know how to gain mass. Ramy much???

i took a shit this morning that had more purpose in life than your post.

Noone owes you anything, if you wanna get big with your kickbacks and leg extensions, best of luck :roll: