Nate's rant, "Nutritionists" & "Toothologists"

[nate225]

There's been some threads lately that have been so reductive in their approach they made me laugh (if I cared enough about the state of NZ BBers I'd probably have cried! :grin: ). The post workout shake thread was a classic......... does anyone really think Jay Cutler gives a shit if his postwork shake has a banana or milk in it :pfft:

I talked to a wise head (an IFBB Pro) about this, he laughed his ass off (probably shook his head in despair too at what the sport has disintegrated into) and said "I have a huge bowl of rice & chicken, I eat it when I can".

Another top NZL BBer, who shall remain nameless, put a power of size on many years ago. What was his secret? Sure as shit wasn't any micro nutrient timing, fad diet ingredient or hundreds of dollar supplement regime. He added 2000 kcals to his diet by adding 4 pies a day to his usual BBing type diet (who'd have thought calories = growth! :pfft: ).

Two words, BIG PICTURE.

Anyhow, my better half has 5 years worth of University Education around Human Nutrition & nearly a decade of Dietetic practice behind her. She once stated to me "Because everyone eats, everyone thinks they're an expert". This seems to hold true lately, 'find a study, form a flashy theory, and proclaim expert status' seems to be a common approach.

This is highlighted with the number of so-called Nutritionists popping up. Nutritionist is a term anyone can adopt, so that fat ass eating McD's for breakfast, lunch and dinner that sits opposite you in the office, can go out and label themselves a nutritionist. I'm sure thy'll find a study to support their beliefs and convince a few others along the way as well! :grin:

My good friend, (who happens to be a GP and martial arts practitioner / PLer), found the following links which summarise the state of things from the perspective of a standup comedian:

Rant over! :grin:

[rose]

.

[ThePman]

I like simple solutions and explanations for things.

Half the reason I read so many research papers is so I can explain exactly why 95% of the stuff coming out of nutrition and exercise science is useless for the average person.

We already know "what works", within certain boundaries, and trying to complicate it beyond that is pointless.

Want to lose weight? Eat less food. Want to gain weight? Eat more food. Yeah you can delve into every last nuance of nutrient absorption and timing and macro ratios and all the rest, but is that really going to affect where you'll be in a year? In five years? If not, then stop worrying about it.

Research is interesting to me from the standpoint of labcoating (aka I'm a nerd), but as far as practical application? Simple is best. Research only tends to describe what we see happening in the first place. Very rarely does it actually give new insight into practical applications.

[nate225]

^^ Absolutely Matt! Well said.

[samoan_muscle]

So what's your point Nate?

Let's just all go out and eat whatever the hell we want because at the end of the day its just calories in versus calories out, right?

Stuff nutrient density and so forth?

[rose]

.

[steak]

I have to agree that "good food" will above most, if not all "supplements" be far more beneficial to anyones health, sports diet and lifestyle. I did tweak an eyebrow slightly above its normal postion on my dial though when the 4 pies were raised...sure...if your putting in a gram of test a week and have your metab' ramped up and have the genetics to carry off a stunt like that but for the average and lets face it we are, on the whole, average bodybuilders (this is who this was directed at eh) this would a be step down the road to fat gain, unhealthy as it is. I too find it incredible that a lot of people find themselves clinging to ideas born purely to sell that magic powder or silver bullet pill and I have been guilty of getting caught up in the hype in the past too but have quickly come back to reality that good food = win.

In saying this though I do have a good quality protein powder at hand

Great post :nod:

[steak]

also interesting article in latest Australian Ironman mag too...Shake vs Steak :wink:

[nate225]

So what's your point Nate?

Let's just all go out and eat whatever the hell we want because at the end of the day its just calories in versus calories out, right?

Stuff nutrient density and so forth?

Nah not at all SM. But let's not complicate things.

How much more does the average BBer on here need to know other than:

* Eat lots of small meals of relatively clean food

* Much sure you are getting regular serves of protein

* Sleep 8 hours +

* Train

Really how much difference is switching a banana for 30g of dextrose in a post workout shake going to make..... :nod:

At a higher level many things can be refined, but tell me whose at "that level". I guess that level could be defined at the level BBers achieved with 'ionised whey' and 'micronutrient breakdowns', which I guess is anyone pre-1990's. How the f*ck did Franco, Arnie, and the Barbarian brothers get so big without knowing about adding dextrose to their post workout shakes! :pfft:

I'm well and truly taking the piss now but you get my spin on this. Too much over analysis, I'll leave you with a quote from the always outspoken Billy Minnaugh which is kinda up the same alley (although more training cf nutrition in context):

Compare that to today. Today, we have the rise of the internet icons, guys who haven’t done a single, solitary thing in the sport actually giving opinions on training to other lifters. These are guys who never even totaled elite but own websites and set themselves up as experts and actually get interviewed for their opinions when the only thing they have learned is what some college professor told them. No practical knowledge, no trial and error, no accomplishments, and in many cases, not even an ounce of muscle mass. Who in the blue hell made these guys experts?

My God, some of these guys know so little about training and what it takes to get big and strong that they should be banned from ever giving advice. I had one icon tell me that good mornings don’t translate into bigger deadlifts or squats and then proceeded to tell me how dangerous they were. Can you imagine? Dangerous? What did Louie say about totally safe movements—“If a movement is totally safe, it’s totally useless.” However, these guys heard some college professor tell them that some study at Harvard shows good mornings are dangerous, and therefore, they accept it as fact. Never mind that the best lifters in the sport swear by them. Nope, professor pencil neck said they are dangerous and that’s that.

One of the biggest factors for this stupidity is the internet. The internet has been an incredible vehicle for acquiring knowledge, but it’s also been one of the most damaging things to ever have happened in weight training. Little tiny men with little tiny totals being elevated as experts. The blind leading the blind, and they all fall in the ditch.

Here’s a suggestion. If you need some advice about getting big and strong, go to someone who is big and strong. Don’t worry about how many letters are next to his name or where he coaches or what college he attended. See if he has paid his dues and succeeded in your chosen sport. Turning pages in a book can’t replace getting under a barbell. Theories don’t trump practical experience. If you go to a seminar, make sure the guy is an expert, not just an internet icon posing as an expert. Most importantly, pay your dues.

You can’t get strong by reading books. Backward dumbbell lunges can’t replace good mornings. GPP doesn’t mean a damn thing if you’re not strong. Stop looking at the technicalities of the sport and just freaking train heavy and hard. Instead of worrying about tweaking that shirt an extra half inch on your arm or getting tighter squat briefs, get strong first and stick to the basics. Read and listen to what guys with big totals have to say, not guys with lots of book smarts and college degrees.

Lastly, ignore the internet icons. Most of them have never and will never do a damn thing in this sport. They sit at their computers with their theories about what it takes to get strong but could never muster up enough nads to actually get strong themselves. A long time ago, you had to pay your dues to be considered an expert. Now, with the rise of the internet, all you need is a computer and a college degree and you can be elevated to the position of strength guru. That’s a sad state of affairs.

[nate225]

I have to agree that "good food" will above most, if not all "supplements" be far more beneficial to anyones health, sports diet and lifestyle.

Not debated by me!

I did tweak an eyebrow slightly above its normal postion on my dial though when the 4 pies were raised...sure...if your putting in a gram of test a week and have your metab' ramped up and have the genetics to carry off a stunt like that but for the average and lets face it we are, on the whole, average bodybuilders (this is who this was directed at eh) this would a be step down the road to fat gain, unhealthy as it is.

Yeah, was an extreme example to illustrate a point. Your analysis here is correct re: the average person, and in fact the majority of BBers. Health effects would be of concern to me too, I wouldn't recommend the approach taken to others.

I too find it incredible that a lot of people find themselves clinging to ideas born purely to sell that magic powder or silver bullet pill and I have been guilty of getting caught up in the hype in the past too but have quickly come back to reality that good food = win.

In saying this though I do have a good quality protein powder at hand

Great post :nod:

Good food = win....... priceless 3 word summary

[Peachy]

While I agree with this thread to some degree I do believe that it is human nature to always look for the bigger, better, faster, more effective, more efficient way to do things. Of course the basics will always be the same and always be applicable to everyone but if you can do something better to get a better result then why not??

Its just like all technology. In high school physics you still learn the same formulas as 10 years ago which are the basics. But then look at something like F1 Racing. The performance of those cars has come so far and to the engineers it comes down to tiny adjustments that continue to improve performance. If someone then came along and tried to race a car that just followed "the basics" of physics and said that was all you need then what would the result be??

Its also like the first time Godzilla raced against the V8s and whooped their asses. If you choose to ignore advances in technology in all forms including nutrition then you will be left behind.

My 2 cents

[Luigi]

Its also like the first time Godzilla raced against the V8s and whooped their asses. If you choose to ignore advances in technology in all forms including nutrition then you will be left behind.

My 2 cents

agreed. v8s suck

[Gym rat]

Its also like the first time Godzilla raced against the V8s and whooped their asses. If you choose to ignore advances in technology in all forms including nutrition then you will be left behind.

My 2 cents

agreed. v8s suck

I also agree as well :pfft: :pfft: :pfft: :pfft:

[NZPT]

i think if nutrition is as easy as pies and more food id be out of a job mate as i am a nutritionist and train athletes so find it offensive slandering my profession. No you cannot just call yourself a nutrititionist it requires a post graduate qualification that most spend the good part of 4-5 years doing and logging over 200 hours or 2 years worth of nutrition consults to become registered.

Nah not at all SM. But let's not complicate things.

How much more does the average BBer on here need to know other than:

* Eat lots of small meals of relatively clean food

* Much sure you are getting regular serves of protein

* Sleep 8 hours +

* Train

true aggreed, but as i offered the advice of dextrose in a post workout shake that seems to got your nickers in a twist i was simply offering a better option as the question was "How does my post workout shake look?" implying info and/or disscussion into how to make it better.

Dextrose no dexterose not a huge issue, bananna no bananna, doent matter in the large scope of things, particularly for a gym goer just getting into it. But if someone askes you how to improve on something there shouldnt be a problem with answering that based on knowledge is avalable.

maybe you should start your own website where if people ask a question you reffer them to a page that says :

How much more does the average BBer on here need to know other than:

* Eat lots of small meals of relatively clean food

* Much sure you are getting regular serves of protein

* Sleep 8 hours +

* Train

there will be no disccussion what so ever.

Your approach is old school, yes it does work but why ignore things that have been proven to be more effective by numerous people in many diffrent practical applications. Macro breakdown is important too, no i dont think jay cutler gives a shit if he has dextrose post workout but i bet he cares about the amount and qaulity of the foods he puts into his mouth to a certain degree and more so in preperation for a show.

Alot of the people who offer advice on this site are competitors themselfs on this site so regardless if youn are anti nutritionist i am a competitior too as are many others so we also have experience to share, i think posts like this will deter people from offering advice and promoting discussion, which is the whole point of a forum.

NZPT

[Agent]

i think if nutrition is as easy as pies and more food id be out of a job mate as i am a nutritionist and train athletes so find it offensive slandering my profession. No you cannot just call yourself a nutrititionist it requires a post graduate qualification that most spend the good part of 4-5 years doing and logging over 200 hours or 2 years worth of nutrition consults to become registered

I don't think Nate was referring to ALL nutritionists, just that there may be some unscrupulous individuals calling themselves that since there is no legally required qualification or registration to use the title "Nutritionist" as there is with "Dietitian". This is not to say all nutritions are unqualified, but a nutitionist's qualifications and experience are more important than just the title "Nutritionist".

Taken from dietitians.org.nz -

"The difference between a Dietitian & a Nutritionist

A Dietitian is a registered health professional who meets standards of professionalism required by the NZ Dietitians Board under the Health Practitioners Competence Assurance Act HPCA Act (2003), who has an accredited undergraduate science degree in human nutrition, as well as a post-graduate diploma in Dietetics. Dietitians are trained in the science of nutrition and diet therapy, qualified to work in areas that require nutritional assessment & counseling. A dietitian may work in a variety of settings ranging from hospital, community, public health, sports, research & education or as medical representatives to the food industry. Dietitians use effective nutritional management strategies, based upon current scientific evidence, to help individuals or groups to improve their health. Dietitians work within a specified Scope of Practice, adhere to a Code of Ethics, meet Registration Competency Requirements, participate in a Continuing Competency Program and undergo regular auditing in order to maintain their practising certificate and to be able to legally call themselves a New Zealand Registered Dietitian. This consumer brochure shows how the public's safety is protected through the registration of a Health Practitioner. There is a complaints and disciplinary process available.

A Nutritionist has usually completed a degree in Human Nutrition or Science, or has training in science, nutrition, biochemistry, medicine or sports physiology. Some people use the title of Nutritionist after completing short courses of just a few weeks. There is no specific qualification or registration legally required for the title of Nutritionist. Most reputable nutritionists in New Zealand should be enrolled on the register of Nutritionists set up by the Nutrition Society of New Zealand."

[cantygirl]

yes I agree that a forum should be a tool to have your say and not be bashed for it. Seems to me their are too many old timers/know it alls on this site. Going by the amount of views on subjects and the amount of replies, I would imagine that you old guys have scarred alot of worthwhile debate away. It is disrespectful to bash Nutritionists vs Dietitians, both have interest and passion in their field and have gained university degrees to back it up. Id love to know what your occupations are!!!!! Generally the meat heads are the ones with the biggest mouths, they're usually the ones driving their v8 Holdens. So why don't you lot with the big mouths take a chill pill and let others have their say.

[Agent]

yes I agree that a forum should be a tool to have your say and not be bashed for it. Seems to me their are too many old timers/know it alls on this site. Going by the amount of views on subjects and the amount of replies, I would imagine that you old guys have scarred alot of worthwhile debate away. It is disrespectful to bash Nutritionists vs Dietitians, both have interest and passion in their field and have gained university degrees to back it up. Id love to know what your occupations are!!!!! Generally the meat heads are the ones with the biggest mouths, they're usually the ones driving their v8 Holdens. So why don't you lot with the big mouths take a chill pill and let others have their say.

You obviously didn't even read what I posted, I never "bashed" Nutritionist v Dietitians like some sort of face off between the two, it was a comparison between what the titles legally mean.

What does anyone's occupation matter? either a point is valid or it is not.

It's funny you have a go at Nate for stating this thread, while at the same time tell everyone to let others have their say, I thought that would've included Nate being allowed?

The way I read it, the original intent was to state his opinion that things could be kept simple as some people are overcomplicating things.

Regardless of my opinion, it seems like a valid point of view.

[Optimass]

yes I agree that a forum should be a tool to have your say and not be bashed for it. Seems to me their are too many old timers/know it alls on this site. Going by the amount of views on subjects and the amount of replies, I would imagine that you old guys have scarred alot of worthwhile debate away. It is disrespectful to bash Nutritionists vs Dietitians, both have interest and passion in their field and have gained university degrees to back it up. Id love to know what your occupations are!!!!! Generally the meat heads are the ones with the biggest mouths, they're usually the ones driving their v8 Holdens. So why don't you lot with the big mouths take a chill pill and let others have their say.

Nate - you may be pleased to know I have recently undertaken the 4 pie meal replacement :grin: ...... CALL ME OLDSCHOOL

Steak - putting fat on is part of the game > yeah its hard to remove in some cases but if your gaining fat ... your gaining muscle for sure.

I for one have always said Dietician is where it's at - the peak of nutrition advice > even though I never finished my studies .... I still circumvent the rules and have been a sports nutritionist for some years now. :pfft: But I don't think it's disrespectful to be compared ... with over 15 years practical experience I am still quite open with clients that I'm not a dietician and explain this exactly the same way Agent has above (although I think giving my money to an association to qualify the title nutritionist is not a good idea .... my money is best spent on me .. they can buy there own pies :pfft: ) I simply couldn't be arsed finishing my studies as I was more concerned with earning a dollar - but in awe of those that muscle it out all the way.

It is simply about calories in and out > and most will know by my posts in the nutrition forum that supplementation is short on my list of must haves to complement training. I think you need to make an educated choice as to hwom you believe and as stated above ... if you want to be big talk to the big guy.

The only known "short cuts" are illegal - but then I wouldnt call them short cuts as they do not come with a guarantee. (And you have to work harder than the average gymrat to get a good result)

Great thread :clap:

Occupation: Currently ... Management Exec ... previously Company Director - (Gym - sucker born every minute :pfft: ) .... Personal Trainer .... SPORTS NUTRITIONIST :wink:

[steak]

Steak - putting fat on is part of the game > yeah its hard to remove in some cases but if your gaining fat ... your gaining muscle for sure.

I know bro..havent you seen me lately

[Optimass]

Your on the pie diet to then :pfft: - it's way more fun than the peanutbutter diet ......

.... nearly time to keto again

[nate225]

i think if nutrition is as easy as pies and more food id be out of a job mate as i am a nutritionist and train athletes so find it offensive slandering my profession. No you cannot just call yourself a nutrititionist it requires a post graduate qualification that most spend the good part of 4-5 years doing and logging over 200 hours or 2 years worth of nutrition consults to become registered.

Check your facts NZPT, any idiot can call themselves a Nutritionist, no course needed, no qualification needed, nada. It's not a protected title period. Maybe you are referring to being a registered sport nutritionist with SESNZ? Nutritionist is not a profession (technically, but then neither is my chosen field so I wont split hairs! :grin: ).

Don't get me wrong I'm not anti nutritionist in a general sense (for the record there are some superb nutritionists out there), people just need to know the term covers a wide range of quals/experience or none of the latter.

Appreciate your ten cents though NZPT.

I don't think Nate was referring to ALL nutritionists, just that there may be some unscrupulous individuals calling themselves that since there is no legally required qualification or registration to use the title "Nutritionist" as there is with "Dietitian". This is not to say all nutritions are unqualified, but a nutitionist's qualifications and experience are more important than just the title "Nutritionist".

Thank you! I see someone understood my rant!

yes I agree that a forum should be a tool to have your say and not be bashed for it. Seems to me their are too many old timers/know it alls on this site. Going by the amount of views on subjects and the amount of replies, I would imagine that you old guys have scarred alot of worthwhile debate away. It is disrespectful to bash Nutritionists vs Dietitians, both have interest and passion in their field and have gained university degrees to back it up. Id love to know what your occupations are!!!!!

Nutritionists aren't required to have any qualifications, which is partly my point.

I'm an Employee Relations Manager, previous to that an HR Manager & Secondary School Teacher. 1 degree, 2 postgrad diplomas, (includes some physiology, anatomy, biochem and sports & conditioning management). I have competed at National level BBing, and National/International level PLing & Strongman. I have trained for 20+ years and still compete, and have coached a number of National & International level PLers / Strongman Competitors. Hopefully my resume allows me to comment freely about topics I am passionate about :grin:

Generally the meat heads are the ones with the biggest mouths, they're usually the ones driving their v8 Holdens. So why don't you lot with the big mouths take a chill pill and let others have their say.

Got me fucked there! LOL I have a 357ci chevy powered holden on the build....$18K and rising.... :pfft:

It's funny you have a go at Nate for stating this thread, while at the same time tell everyone to let others have their say, I thought that would've included Nate being allowed?

The way I read it, the original intent was to state his opinion that things could be kept simple as some people are overcomplicating things.

Don't worry bro I got thick skin & broad shoulders! :grin: You got the intent sorted!

[nate225]

yes I agree that a forum should be a tool to have your say and not be bashed for it. Seems to me their are too many old timers/know it alls on this site. Going by the amount of views on subjects and the amount of replies, I would imagine that you old guys have scarred alot of worthwhile debate away. It is disrespectful to bash Nutritionists vs Dietitians, both have interest and passion in their field and have gained university degrees to back it up. Id love to know what your occupations are!!!!! Generally the meat heads are the ones with the biggest mouths, they're usually the ones driving their v8 Holdens. So why don't you lot with the big mouths take a chill pill and let others have their say.

Nate - you may be pleased to know I have recently undertaken the 4 pie meal replacement :grin: ...... CALL ME OLDSCHOOL

Steak - putting fat on is part of the game > yeah its hard to remove in some cases but if your gaining fat ... your gaining muscle for sure.

I for one have always said Dietician is where it's at - the peak of nutrition advice > even though I never finished my studies .... I still circumvent the rules and have been a sports nutritionist for some years now. :pfft: But I don't think it's disrespectful to be compared ... with over 15 years practical experience I am still quite open with clients that I'm not a dietician and explain this exactly the same way Agent has above (although I think giving my money to an association to qualify the title nutritionist is not a good idea .... my money is best spent on me .. they can buy there own pies :pfft: ) I simply couldn't be arsed finishing my studies as I was more concerned with earning a dollar - but in awe of those that muscle it out all the way.

It is simply about calories in and out > and most will know by my posts in the nutrition forum that supplementation is short on my list of must haves to complement training. I think you need to make an educated choice as to hwom you believe and as stated above ... if you want to be big talk to the big guy.

The only known "short cuts" are illegal - but then I wouldnt call them short cuts as they do not come with a guarantee. (And you have to work harder than the average gymrat to get a good result)

Great thread :clap:

Occupation: Currently ... Management Exec ... previously Company Director - (Gym - sucker born every minute :pfft: ) .... Personal Trainer .... SPORTS NUTRITIONIST :wink:

Fantastic response Optimass, even though I was apparently attacking you and your profession! :pfft:

I don't dislike nutritionists as a generalisation as I mentioned earlier - just idiots claiming to be something they are not.

As you well know you can pay thousands of dollars and do a two week course & convince the general public you are a highly qualified 'nutritionist'. Alternately there are many nutritionists that have degrees & post grad quals that know their shit inside out and upside down.

I also know a particular individual with absolutely no qualifications at all that has managed to get 20+ competitors onstage in the best shape of their lives.

I've enjoyed the debate so far, hopefully no ones had a stroke over it! 4 pies a day could do that to ya! :pfft:

[Optimass]

.. haha ... not worried - my wife would rather hire Weight Watchers than admit I'm right :pfft: - is that terrible or what :shock:

[cantygirl]

The point is, respect. Get it.

[nate225]

The point is, respect. Get it.

LOL - when you find some Pantygirl let me know where to buy it! :pfft:

I haven't disrepected anyone (perhaps with the exception of my jibe above!) but have made some valid points imho. Maybe you could ask someone like Steak, Rose, Agent or Optimass (a nutritionist who earns respect! :grin: ) to decipher it for you, it seems to have gone way over your head.

P.S. Optimass & myself have been courteous enough to answer your question re: occupations (and quals added), how about you put yours up?