Neck Behind Exercises - Good or Bad

[HumanPerformance]

Human Performance: How about those smith machines that move back and forth rather than just up and down? The rotators are a little more involved with this machine as opposed to the smith's that just go up and down.

Yes thats correct SM. Because they offer a certain amount of movement they are better than the fixed smith machine.

[ThePman]

In terms of physios and other medical professionals and what they have to say on the matter? With respect, many have probably not done a lot of serious weight training. But then again this is also probably true of many PTs. Not that practical experience is a prerequisite for having an opinion. But maybe it does help?

Don't get me started on this topic.

Physios do great things in injured populations. The problem is that a lot of the clinical research that comes out of the physiotherapy field is...I won't say poor, but let's say weakly applicable and poorly interpreted by a lot of experts in that field.

And yeah, part of that does come back to having little experience in training themselves, or others, in a "serious" setting.

One good example is the whole "don't go below parallel when you squat" idea. You can't actually point to any direct research in healthy subjects that will validate that idea; at the same time, it's "orthodox" to physios.

Why? Because somebody told them that's how it is. Anybody with experience squatting will tell you that full squats aren't going to wreck your knees; but most physios with little sports background are going to make it sound like your knees will explode, regardless of the justification.

There is a rationale for not doing the OHP behind the neck. That said, it's also got little to do with weakening the rotators, and a lot more to do with impingement caused by moving through that ROM while the shoulder's externally rotated.

However not everybody is going to get that impingement, either. If you can do BTN work without pain, and if you have the required stability of the upper back + sufficiently mobile shoulders, odds are you're going to be OK. I can't do it because of prior shoulder injuries that make it really painful, but I don't see it as being a major problem for people without issues.

[HumanPerformance]

This is for the very reason you mentioned, that the rotators dont have to work as hard as normal. But this weakens the rotators (in relation to the strengthening surrounding musculature) even faster than normal, thus cuasing rotator problems even sooner.

Doesn't this go against what you said before?

The problem arises because the shoulder is a floating joint which is only stabailsed by the very small rotator muscles. Whenever you perform a behind the head movement it internally rotates the shoulder joint to an un natural position. The poor little rotators cannot cope with the load and become strained or torn.

Having a powerlifting background I'm naturally not a smith machine advocate, but I really like it in this case. I don't see the straight line thing as a problem here, as long as you set up so the bar stays close. A risk I see with barbell BTN press is that the bar can veer further behind you which obviously is going to put your shoulders in a much worse position. Not against BB BTN press or anything though.

Again I think machines are safer than free weights (again, as long as the line matches your body safely), but you're generally not going to get big and strong on machines so it's the risks we take.

Agree RE: making sure you keep the RC muscles strong. I think everyone should put effort into this whether they do smith BTN press or not.

Yes in reading my post I can see how the two statements seem to be a contradiction (sorry about that) Yes the BNP with the free barbell works the rotators as they have to stabalize the joint more strenuosly than with a smith machine. So because they are being used they do get improve in strength as they get a workout. Unfortunately though it is a workout that is beyond thier capabilities (accumilating over time). When you think of how much you you can use on a rotatator movement compared to how much you are asking the rotators to to stabalize when you press you will see my point. But because they are getting worked thier deterioration comes more slowly than on a smith machine where they do not have to work at all.

This as well seems confusing, but it is not during the smith machine use that the damage occurs (because of course the rotators are not being stressed) It is during other rotator involving exercises (quite often bench press) that the damage is inflicted. This is due to the strenthening of the shoulder muscles, and the rotators being left behind.

But I suppose you could argue that if you did behind the head shoulder press and absolutley no other chest or shoulder movements in your training regieme then yes the shoulder press on the smith machine would be safer than the free weight version.

[boostinggtir]

hmmm, this may explain why I saw a guy twice as strong as me, using half the weight I use on the free bar bn shoulderpress. hmmm Yea I always do them first, so I guess that would lower the risk of injury having maximum control. Must say my forum on these hasn't been the best lately, trying to lift my bulking weight wile on a cutting diet. I better lower the weight a little.

[grinder]

Ok my two cents worth..

I use behind neck lat pull and bar press as a finisher movement at the end of my workouts. I never go heavy and use high (20's) rep range. I only go to just below ear level on the press and with the lat pull I slide my body all the way forward and keep my head neutral. I squeeze my shoulder blades back and down with the movement.

I dont have shoulder issues with these movements, have had them with super heavy DB press in the past tho..

Bottom line for me:

Behind neck movements are a good finishing movement when done with light weight and high rep.

Try it and see what you think, everybody's body's different aye?

[rose]

Like all of these things, I think there is a danger in over analysing things and complicating matters unnecessarily.

The doc has spoken :pfft:

practical experience... maybe it does help?

Based on my verrry limited experience I suggest it does. Sports physios do not necessarily lift or know a lot about lifting. How many sports physios would actually specialise in this area or make an effort to be informed about it beyond the basics?

Physio is likely to advise against something that could perpetuate an existing condition, and a PT something that could result in a 'typical injury'. Most would errr on the side of caution, especially these days?

Why? Because somebody told them that's how it is.

Propagation of memes. And misinformation or results of studies expressed in ways (omitted!) to support a particular idea/argument/product, etc.

[Tonka]

I still actually consider it to be the single most effective exercise for building shoulder size.But reluctantly I have had to pretty much give it up, and stop giving it to my clients simply because of the rotator problems both myself and my clients have recieved from it. If you are regularly training your rotators you might be able to get away with it.

Thats the key right there...preventative maintenance on the rotators as well as the rear delts. These are key shoulder areas that require the most work for overall shoulder stabilization and continual strength increases. Im also an advocate for behind the neck work but with a preference for free weight as opposed to machine. Why? Old school I suppose but also our gym doesnt have many machine like equipment.

Interesting that this topic keeps coming up.

[Tonka]

Physio is likely to advise against something that could perpetuate an existing condition, and a PT something that could result in a 'typical injury'. Most would errr on the side of caution, especially these days?

Well said Rose and I would tend to agree that caution is something PT's do (and need to) consider. Knowing or being told the effects that some exercises can do more harm than good especially for the average Joe Bloggs just wanting to get healthier, why risk a possible injury. There are so many other exercise alternatives available.

[HumanPerformance]

I still actually consider it to be the single most effective exercise for building shoulder size.But reluctantly I have had to pretty much give it up, and stop giving it to my clients simply because of the rotator problems both myself and my clients have recieved from it. If you are regularly training your rotators you might be able to get away with it.

Thats the key right there...preventative maintenance on the rotators as well as the rear delts. These are key shoulder areas that require the most work for overall shoulder stabilization and continual strength increases. Im also an advocate for behind the neck work but with a preference for free weight as opposed to machine. Why? Old school I suppose but also our gym doesnt have many machine like equipment.

Interesting that this topic keeps coming up.

Yes, cant argue with that. If everyone did pre hab for thier rotators and trained thier rear delts as much as thier front delts then rotator issues would almost nonexsistant

[rose]

But I can't see my rear delts when I look in the mirror and anyway I don't even know what they are and some huge guy at my gym said they get hammered on back day anyway so why should I have to? He must know what he's talking about cos he's huge though I notice he has chicken legs which is odd but I guess he's one of those hard gainers in that particular area aye? :-s :pfft:

Kidding! I'm totally kidding OK? I train rear delts religiously :pray: 8)

[HumanPerformance]

But I can't see my rear delts when I look in the mirror and anyway I don't even know what they are and some huge guy at my gym said they get hammered on back day anyway so why should I have to? He must know what he's talking about cos he's huge though I notice he has chicken legs which is odd but I guess he's one of those hard gainers in that particular area aye? :-s :pfft:

Kidding! I'm totally kidding OK? I train rear delts religiously :pray: 8)

LMAO You sound exactly like one of my clients.

[TOMDABOM]

pudzian gets away with it, as far as i know he has never done a cuff

[ThePman]

From my experience, having a mobile t-spine and stabilized scapula can prevent (or at least minimize the risk of) the majority of shoulder issues.

For my 2 cents, direct RC work never did anything but cause more pain. Work on those two things helped out immensely.

[Tonka]

From my experience, having a mobile t-spine and stabilized scapula can prevent (or at least minimize the risk of) the majority of shoulder issues.

For my 2 cents, direct RC work never did anything but cause more pain. Work on those two things helped out immensely.

Thanks for that ThePman, I just googled some exercises increased mobility on the t-spine and scapula stabilization. Makes sense and definitely an area that I could add into my training. There is a few exercises I already do but there are alot I havent tried.

[mr natural]

whats wrong with plain front presses and pulling movements?i don't believe behind the neck offers anything further and you can still lift heavy with front movements.

[Ordy]

I usually do both. Never had any issues in the joints from it.... yet

[biggied]

Big Kiwi uses BTN barbell press as his main shoulder exercise, look at the size of his delts

[PTinCHCH]

http://exrx.net/WeightExercises/Latissi ... ldown.html

http://exrx.net/WeightExercises/Latissi ... rtner.html

http://exrx.net/WeightExercises/Deltoid ... Press.html

nothing wrong with behind the head

[musclenz]

Good thread. Just wnted to have a quick observation from one that has a mass of sholder tendon tears & injuries over the years. Totally agree with HP's rundown on using behind the neck exercises & can also sympathise with MZ on his point of view. I believe there are a couple of important considerations with all this.

1. That there is a gradual wear & tear factor that results in " things creeping up on you" in time. So whilst you can get away with it as a younger lifter, its likely to result in injury down the track.

2. That using say, BB Behind the neck military press with heavy weights, or rear Lat Pulldowns (my downfall) is great for building overall shoulder mass but does nothing for the shouder joint or the stabilising rotators & eventually leads to trouble.

I guess that some people can get away with this work & have no problems but just be aware, when you feel that first "pop" of a rotator tear, you can be assured that your training will be forever effected.

[Grego]

That's because there's too many physios trying to be trainers/coaches. They don't overlap well.

Not the most clear comment. Generally they

(physio's) know more about form and bodily function that most people including those in the gym. I'd do as I'm told!

[ThePman]

That's because there's too many physios trying to be trainers/coaches. They don't overlap well.

Not the most clear comment. Generally they

(physio's) know more about form and bodily function that most people including those in the gym. I'd do as I'm told!

They know about form and function as it relates to injured populations, but what applies to rehabilitation doesn't always apply to healthy athletes.

Most of their prescriptions don't actually come directly from that knowledge of form and movement, but rather from clinical research that has only weak applicability to non-injured individuals.

If you take 30 people with existing shoulder problems, have them do a range of shoulder exercises, and then find that Exercise A was making the issue worse, do you assume that Exercise A caused the problems to begin with?

That's one conclusion, but it's not necessarily right.

It's not that physios are uneducated about the matter. It's that some of the advice intended to rehab the injured is transferred to people without those injuries. They lack context, which creates the idea that everyone's fragile and just one rep away from catastrophe.

That just doesn't seem to pan out in reality.

[orange]

My trainer says behind the neck should press is banned in the gym because people extend their neck outward to expose the back of the neck then physically impact the bar on the cervical at the top of the spine.

[Laver]

http://exrx.net/WeightExercises/LatissimusDorsi/CBRearPulldown.html

http://exrx.net/WeightExercises/Latissi ... rtner.html

http://exrx.net/WeightExercises/Deltoid ... Press.html

nothing wrong with behind the head

I've spent quite a while on that site in the past PT, when I read the first post I was also going to re-direct to some Exrx pages, so good stuff.

Conclusion, like ANYTHING injury can occur if the body's muscles and joint structures and not ready to meet the demands.

http://www.exrx.net/ExInfo/AdaptationCriteria.html

[Optimass]

have done behind the neck chins and presses on and off. I'm not personally unfamiliar with rotor injuries but found these were caused from heavy flat bench done with grip too wide at the time. BTN exercisess may have weakened it but it was the 265kg Barbell that did the bulk of the damage.

As HP has pointed out if you're under 25 you could get some use out of them - but if you were starting out in training and were over 25 I wouldn't recommend you start as you muscle will not respond as easily and may cause a higher risk of injury. There's plenty of other exercises that will do as good a job anyways

[thatwaslight]

it was the 265kg Barbell that did the bulk of the damage.

on what flat bench? :shock: