PWO Nutrition?

[Croix]

Hey again

Yet another quest for knowledge post!

I've been doing some reading on nutrition and exercise over the last couple of days and found a lot of talk on post workout nutrition and it's essentials.

I have no PWO nutrition factored in to my diet at all currently.

So far I have been eating 6 meals a day (real food) spaced about 3 hours apart, which means my dinner meal normally comes about 1 hour after my workout and consists of mainly grilled chicken and veges.

Does anyone here have more info on post workout nurition and meal timing etc.?

If I factor in a PWO shake with high glycemic sugars and protein, does that count as a meal? also will I then need to make changes to my other meals throughout the day to compensate for the extra calories in the PWO drink? - considering I'm currently cutting.

Many thanks

[Varven]

Post workout proteins arent going to affect fat loss. Thus dont bother counting the calories from protein in your PWO shake. Also theres no fat in this shake so you dont have to account for it. If your worried about the simple sugars piling up, cut out the carbs from your last meal before workout, so itll be a protein only meal. PWO shake that way can have carbs and proteins and youll be fine. Remember to chuck in some Glutamine mate, It helps a lot with retaining muscle when cutting down.

[Croix]

Thanks for the advice man,

Is there any formula as to how many carbs I should be consuming in the shake? or what the best source of carbs are (dextrose, multidextron?) Are there any decent supps that have the proper protein and carbs built in for PWO?

Glutamine's a funny one too, I've read a lot on this lately - just for kicks mate, pop on over to elitefitness.com and have a look at the supplements forum, there's a debate with a lot of research papers posted on the null effects of glutamine - something about it only being effective in severe trauma cases (burn victims etc.) and not effective at all for the unsevere damage caused by lifting weights. I think they're saying EAA's are far more effective. I'm new to all this nutrition and training excitement so have no idea, makes for an interesting read...

Cheers

[jono]

Post workout proteins arent going to affect fat loss. Thus dont bother counting the calories from protein in your PWO shake. Also theres no fat in this shake so you dont have to account for it. If your worried about the simple sugars piling up, cut out the carbs from your last meal before workout, so itll be a protein only meal. PWO shake that way can have carbs and proteins and youll be fine. Remember to chuck in some Glutamine mate, It helps a lot with retaining muscle when cutting down.

never cut carbs from a pre workout meal

[Marcus]

I think you need to do a bit of experimenting. You def need a PWO meal of some sort & you may have to alter the rest of your diet. But don't do it straight away. I've always found that my PWO hasn't effected my bodyfat levels etc because at that stage your body is screaming for the simple carbs & protein in order to stop catabolism.

I think you're bang on with your dinner meal. Have this about 1-1.5 hrs after your PWO meal.

[waldo]

Post workout proteins arent going to affect fat loss. Thus dont bother counting the calories from protein in your PWO shake. Also theres no fat in this shake so you dont have to account for it. If your worried about the simple sugars piling up, cut out the carbs from your last meal before workout, so itll be a protein only meal. PWO shake that way can have carbs and proteins and youll be fine. Remember to chuck in some Glutamine mate, It helps a lot with retaining muscle when cutting down.

never cut carbs from a pre workout meal

Amen to that. Carbs pre and post will be used.

[Pseudonym]

never cut carbs from a pre workout meal

Never say never.

There are lots of different cutting methods. The one I use does require you to cut carbs pre-workout - not completely, but almost. I'll put up my diet for discussion. I'll do it in a new topic though, rather than hijack this one...

Croix, as the others have said, good PWO nutrition is essential. Here's what you need:

High GI carbs - glucose/dextrose is generally considered best, but any sugar will do. You can get dextrose from the home brew section of the supermarket in 1 kilo bags at half the price of the 400g packets sold in the sugar section. :wink:

Protein - preferably fast-releasing like a whey isolate.

Fat - none. This will slow the absorption of the protein and carbs.

Having said that, here's what I do... A lot of this is built on supposition, superstition and theory, rather than proven facts, but hey - that's bodybuilding!

Immediately post-workout

- approx 60g dextrose, because that's the size of my scoop. This prevents my body breaking down muscle to replace the energy stores I used during my workout. It also causes a spike in insulin levels, which will help with protein absorption later on.

- 5-10g protein isolate, because the presence of even a little bit of protein (or rather, the aminos within the protein) is thought to prevent muscle breakdown, and significantly increase the insulin spike. Maybe. If I were rich, I might use aminos instead, but I'm not, so I stick with plain ol' whey isolate.

- splash of blackcurrant juice concentrate, because the vitamin C helps boost the immune system, and the sugar works as above. More importantly, it tastes nice.

Post-workout, plus 20 mins

- 40-50g whey protein isolate. This delay is to ensure the body uses the sugars taken previously to replenish energy stores, and not the protein, which we want to be used solely for muscle building. That's the theory anyway. Besides, it gives me time to get home.

- I might also have some more sugars here if I feel the need.

Post-workout, plus 90 mins

Real meal, consisting of protein, carbs, and fat.

[Varven]

Guys, yes carbs before a workout is great... I had about 100g pre wo when i was bulking.. but depending on your diet strategy... there is a use of having your last carb meal say 3 hours pre workout and then instant sugars in your PWO shake.

It increases fat being burnt as your not full of energy from the carbs you just ate before your workout. I dont have a zillion citations to support this theory.. just that a coupla friends have used it effeciently so far and now Im following in their footsteps.

[Croix]

Thanks for all the replies,

You're definately right in that a lot of opinions vary on the subject of optimal PWO nutrition and nutrient %'s etc.

I'm sure most of you would have read this, but I found it to be a very informative paper on the subject: "Window of Opportunity"

This article doesn't go into too much detail on the BCAA and EAA's for recovery which I have found to be important PWO through the other reading that I've done.

I'm surprised there is no "staple" post work out supplement that carefully combines all the required nutrients to replenish glycogen levels, prevent catabolism and enhance protein sythesis. Then again I suppose the blend would very from person to person.

Couple more quick questions;

Are there any supplements or products that would contain a nice combo of Dextrose and Maltodextrin?

Can you buy maltodextrin from health food stores or supermarkets?

And finally can anyone highly reccomend a hydrolyzed whey isolate with or without built in BCAA's? (my current whey is just a straight concentrate with some extra vitamins and minerals).

Cheers!

[Marcus]

I don't know how you guys can have a really intense workout with no carbs in the system. You both train to absolute failure?

My PWO routine is similar to Pseudonym, except I use BCAA's, Glutamine & CEE straight after. Then 20mins later I have my whey shake.

My meal after that is just chicken breast & veges.

It's like anything though mate, everyone is different. You just need to find what works well for you.

[THEBERG]

Personally myself i dont bother with a PWO supllement, i can eat a full sized meal right after training. I usually have a chicken breast some potatoe or rice and beans.

[sponge]

Personally myself i dont bother with a PWO supllement, i can eat a full sized meal right after training. I usually have a chicken breast some potatoe or rice and beans.

then you are missing out on a valueable opportunity

[deegee]

I try to tale a pwo shake withing 1/2 an hour of finishing my work out and eat a meal within about an hour or so after

[THEBERG]

I manage to eat a full meal 5- 10 minutes after the gym, i live really close. SO i dont see the need for me to have a PWO supp after.

[sponge]

I manage to eat a full meal 5- 10 minutes after the gym, i live really close. SO i dont see the need for me to have a PWO supp after.

half of the reason to have PWO is it's fast action..

whatever. your loss.

[Croix]

I thought I had it all figured out after reading John Berardi's in depth articles on the importance of fast acting carbs and the necessary insulin spike.

Then I found this thread on Bodybuilding.com. At first it just pissed me off, then after the long read it seems there are some valid points there.

Interesting read... what do you all think?

Cheers

[sponge]

any carbs will do the trick, but high glycemic carbs will do it faster and more efficiently.

[Ash]

Then I found this thread on Bodybuilding.com. At first it just pissed me off, then after the long read it seems there are some valid points there.

Interesting read... what do you all think?

Cheers

That's a very interesting thread, I'll have to go over it in more detail soon but thanks for pointing it out.

[Croix]

After reading and re-reading that thread for the last 4 hours, I must say I'm converted.

The citation of the relevant studies are excellent and more recent than Berardi's and the previous "window of opportunity" link I posted earlier.

As an aside it's definately opened my eyes to the agenda of qualified PhD's and nutrition 'experts' when incentivised and backed by the multi-billion$ supplement industry - though in this case probably superflous to the information presented on both sides of the debate.

I'll be researching this further