Creatine Woes

[Croix]

Hey guys

Well I've decided to start out with a normal 4 week cycle of Creatine Mono to get me going. Then look at Kre-Alkalyne or CEE after that for experiments sake.

My main concern is the uptake of creatine mono, which requires a shit load of simple carbs for the insulin spike (about 600cals worth during loading!)

I'm on a very exact calorie diet at the moment while I'm cutting to 10% BF. I don't want to lose any muscle and am trying to increase some through beginner gains, but I really don't want to up my calories this much just to get the creatine to my muscles.

Is there a way around this?

Cheers

[waldo]

Do a search on insulintropic amino acids. They will have a similar effect as to high GI carbs.

That and, you don't HAVE to use simple carbs to load creatine, it just helps a little more.

[Pseudonym]

I wouldn't worry too much about getting the insulin spike while you're loading (in fact, some people don't bother loading at all).

The main time you want a spike in insulin levels is post-workout, and because your muscles are glycogen-depleted then, you can have heaps of carbs without worrying about putting on the fat. More info on this here.

Waldo, how do the insulinotropic amino acids work? If they increase the insulin level without the high blood sugar that would come from carbs, what are the implications? Presumably the insulin would continue to lower the blood sugar levels - at what point does this become harmful? Also, could the insulin spike (even if caused by amino acids, not carbs) still increase fat storage by using existing blood sugars?

[Croix]

Thanks for the advice, made for interesting net research!

Pseudonym, are you saying I can just load without adding any dextrose etc. and then only add sugars with the PWO dose?

Also are there any decent creatine mono products that have the transport built in with minimal sugars?

Even with the PWO glycogen depletion allowing the carbs not to be stored as fat, having the sugars with the creatine still ups the daily cals - won't this slow my cutting progress?

Thanks

[waldo]

Have a read of this:

http://www.jssm.org/vol3/n2/1/v3n2-1pdf.pdf

Provides a good enough reason for me as to why diets supplemented with a HIGH quality Whey Protein rich in/or supplemented with Insulinotropic Aminos work.

As per, do a google, and get heaps of info!

[waldo]

Diets Rich in Branched-Chain Amino Acids and Leucine May Benefit Weight Management Programs

Obesity is a growing health problem in the United States and weight management programs are becoming the primary focus in many health care programs. There is also increasing evidence that branched chain amino acids (BCAAs), and specifically leucine, have unique roles in metabolic regulation beyond the fundamental role of amino acids as substrates. Dr. Layman, a researcher at the University of Illinois, evaluated the role of BCAAs and leucine in regards to weight management. He concluded that a diet containing leucine rich proteins was beneficial in increasing fat loss and promoting lean muscle tissue. Whey protein is naturally high in BCAAs and one of the best available sources. Whey protein isolate, the most pure form of whey protein, also contains little to no fat, cholesterol, or lactose which also makes it an ideal protein for a weight management program.

Source: Layman, Journal of Nutrition, 2003, 133:261S

Branched Chain Amino Acid Content of Key Proteins

Protein Source BCAAs g Per 100 g

Protein

Whey Protein Isolate 26 g

Whey Protein Concentrate

(80% Protein)

22.5 g

Egg White Powder 22 g

Milk Protein Isolate 20 g

Soy Protein Isolate 17 g

Source: US Dairy Export Council Reference Manual for US Whey and Lactose Products (2003)

Article courtesy of the Whey Protein Institute - http://www.wheyoflife.org.

[Croix]

Endorphin - do you sell CEE here in NZ?

[endorphin]

337 Onehunga Mall, Auckland, or http://www.endosport.co.nz

We've only just gotten the USN range in so we haven't got it online yet but is available instore or by email order

[Croix]

Would you reccomend I try CEE before normal creatine monohydrate? (never used a creatine before)

If not, what's the best mono that you stock?

Also can you answer my post a couple of replies up regarding the loading without sugars?

Cheers mate

[Marcus]

I'd give CEE a try if you bloat when you use creatine mono.

[Croix]

Can you post some of your feedback from your experience with CEE Marcus?

[Marcus]

I haven't used it long enough to give you an adequate review really. My goals are tended towards fat loss at the moment also. I've been taking it for 3 weeks now, 3g pre workout. I've found I don't hold any water with this product like I do with the mono.

The idea behind CEE is the ethyl esther forces the creatine inside of the muscle. Whereas with mono most of the creatine stays outside the muscle, hence the water retention.

I bought mine from trueprotein.com. Got 2.2kgs for about $130-150 from memory. Should last me for at least a year. Tastes like absolute crap though. Picture putting acid on your tongue - it gave me that feeling. :shock:

[Croix]

Tastes like absolute crap though. Picture putting acid on your tongue - it gave me that feeling.

Havn't done that since 7th form!

Thanks for the feedback. Have you noticed you're getting the same pumps and strength on the CEE compared with the regular creatine?

Does CEE require simple sugars for transport?

Cheers

[endorphin]

CEE doesn't require carbs as the Ester helps improve absorption. Hence the reason why no loading phase is required and slightly lower doses are used when compared to creatine mono.

Having never used creatine before I can't see any reason why not to use CEE - it's basically just creatine mono with an ester attached to it to improve absorption across the cell walls. It should offer similar effects to mono but without having to load, and without having to use excess simple carbs.

As far as using normal creatine with carbs this is down to the individual. About 80% of people who use creatine get good results - the other 20% who have little or no response will often get good results when combined with high glycemic carbs. There is also a small percentage who are non repsonders even with carbs - this could be down to existing high levels of creatine in the body, or some other genetic trait.

As Waldo mentioned earlier combining carbs and protein does much the same thing as similar amounts of carbs alone (around 35g of carbs and 35g protein has been shown to get the same insulin response as 70g carbs).

You can also use individual amino's like Taurine, as well as Alpha Lipoic acid to help reduce your insulin resistance, and improve insulin sensitivity. That way you can use less carbs as your body is more able to utilize insulin.

[Marcus]

Thanks for the feedback. Have you noticed you're getting the same pumps and strength on the CEE compared with the regular creatine?

My goals are more orientated toward fat loss at the moment so I haven't really noticed as much as if I was putting on mass. My weight went up the first week I went on it & I'm still gaining strength in some exercises. I'm just enjoying it because I don't hold so much water as with mono.