HOW MUCH PROTEIN DO YOU NEED???? (POLL)

[shruglife]

It is unbelievable how opinion differs when it comes to protein consumption. I read all the threads on this topic in this section from the start of this forum and none of them seem to properly address this issue.

I've read eating too much protein can have a negative effect on your kidneys as does consuming too much water. What I'm more concerned about is spending my time/money making meals and shakes to get protein in to my body, that loses it's effectiveness repairing muscle tissue past a certain point.

Personally I was only consuming 170-200g protein weighing 94kg and was making faster gains than I've seen others making on a much higher protein diet.

I would also be interested in what people think the right amount of carbs/fat a 100kg bodybuilder should consume if they were trying to achieve the most efficient muscle growth for their time/money.

To put things in perspective, here is Kai saying he consumes between 500-1000g of protein a day :shock:

[Specter]

Yeah, that is a lot of protein...but looks like it works for him I guess.

At the moment I reckon I getting 300-320grams of protein in me daily..and Im quite happy with that.

[samoan_muscle]

Depends on your weight...500g / day for a 70kg dude is riduculous.

Change the poll questions to how many grams of protein per kg of bodyweight...

[Specter]

Yeah, that is a lot of protein...but looks like it works for him I guess.

At the moment I reckon I getting 300-320grams of protein in me daily..and Im quite happy with that.

been sitting 98.1kg last 3 days..Im a fat ass! :pfft:

[poos_n_wees]

I picked 250. I've always been a fan of the 1-1.5g of protein per pound of bodyweight formula :shrug:

I've read eating too much protein can have a negative effect on your kidneys as does consuming too much water. What I'm more concerned about is spending my time/money making meals and shakes to get protein in to my body, that loses it's effectiveness repairing muscle tissue past a certain point.

There was a thread on this a while ago..

EDIT: viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1988

But I agree with you, why waste money on more protein that won't be utilised effectively anyway?

To put things in perspective, here is Kai saying he consumes between 500-1000g of protein a day :shock:

1000?? :shock:

[shruglife]

Depends on your weight...500g / day for a 70kg dude is riduculous.

Change the poll questions to how many grams of protein per kg of bodyweight...

The question is, "How much protein does a 100kg bodybuilder need to consume?". If you think the ratio should be 3g/kg for example, then you would vote 300g.

From my reading, some people believe everyone should consume a set amount of protein regardless of weight. I don't agree with that but I wanted to make the poll unbiased. So instead of offereing choices based on protein to bodyweight ratios I worded the question in a way people of both views could voice their opinion.

[samoan_muscle]

Depends on your weight...500g / day for a 70kg dude is riduculous.

Change the poll questions to how many grams of protein per kg of bodyweight...

The question is, "How much protein does a 100kg bodybuilder need to consume?". If you think the ratio should be 3g/kg for example, then you would vote 300g.

Oh - sorry - didnt read it properly. Tired today...lol

[biggurl27]

Same what poos said 100 / .454 = 220lbs x 1.5 = 330 grms protein per day or 220-330 grms so I voted for inbetween that of 300 gms per day.

[shruglife]

Yeah, that is a lot of protein...but looks like it works for him I guess.

At the moment I reckon I getting 300-320grams of protein in me daily..and Im quite happy with that.

been sitting 98.1kg last 3 days..Im a fat ass! :pfft:

At around my weight you are eating close to twice the amount of protein I was. The effectiveness of the protein drops past a certain point, a 60kg bodybuilder won't get twice the gains he would consuming 200g, by eating 400g of protein. Also, Kai's nutritionist said your body is more receptive to protein at breakfast and post-workout so this also has to be taken into accont when finding the optimal amount of protein for muscle growth.

It's hard to experiment by monitoring your strength gains using differing amounts of protein from week to week but perhaps if I tried using a higher protein/kg ratio for a while and noticed considerably better gains I could eventually find the optimal amount of protein I personally need. Unfortunately you have to be consistent with diet to test soemthing like that, not to mention keeping other factors like sleep consistent...

[shruglife]

Same what poos said 100 / .454 = 220lbs x 1.5 = 330 grms protein per day or 220-330 grms so I voted for inbetween that of 300 gms per day.

That's good, the reason I allowed 2 options is so you can select 250 and 300 if you want to indicate that 275 is the ideal amount of protein.

[poos_n_wees]

It's hard to experiment by monitoring your strength gains using differing amounts of protein from week to week but perhaps if I tried using a higher protein/kg ratio for a while and noticed considerably better gains I could eventually find the optimal amount of protein I personally need. Unfortunately you have to be consistent with diet to test soemthing like that, not to mention keeping other factors like sleep consistent...

Personally (and total calorie intake comments aside), I find it hard to monitor physical differences with protein intake alone. I just find that the more protein in my diet, the more satiated I am. And I just trust that the amount I'm taking in is enough, given that I follow the 'protein/lb of bodyweight' formula. So when I'm working out a diet plan, I just make sure I have at the very least, the minimum amount of protein my bodyweight requires.

When I play around with carbs and fat grams though, thats where I tend to notice the bigger changes. Physically (in the gym and mirror) and mentally lol.

[gazza]

quality of the protein source as wellas quantity would have to be a factor along with timing.

[shruglife]

It's hard to experiment by monitoring your strength gains using differing amounts of protein from week to week but perhaps if I tried using a higher protein/kg ratio for a while and noticed considerably better gains I could eventually find the optimal amount of protein I personally need. Unfortunately you have to be consistent with diet to test soemthing like that, not to mention keeping other factors like sleep consistent...

Personally (and total calorie intake comments aside), I find it hard to monitor physical differences with protein intake alone. I just find that the more protein in my diet, the more satiated I am. And I just trust that the amount I'm taking in is enough, given that I follow the 'protein/lb of bodyweight' formula. So when I'm working out a diet plan, I just make sure I have at the very least, the minimum amount of protein my bodyweight requires.

When I play around with carbs and fat grams though, thats where I tend to notice the bigger changes. Physically (in the gym and mirror) and mentally lol.

'Satiated'. I learned a new word there PNW thanks . Yeah, I agree it's very difficult to monitor physical changes on a regular basis which is why I think reviewing strength increases from week to week would be the way to go. The ratio I made for myself when I started and wanted to bulk up was 2.5g Protein, 5g Carbohydrate and 2g Fat per kg BW and the Calories needed to maintain weight I took to be 40 x BW. I didn't stick to these ratios very well but if anyone thinks these ratios are off anyway then I'm open to advice.

quality of the protein source as wellas quantity would have to be a factor along with timing.

That's a good point Gazza, I've often wondered if paying for cheap protein means I'm getting 'cheap' protein.

[HumanPerformance]

How much protein for a 100kg bodybuilder?

It depends on his bodyfat % for a start, if he is 10% is lean weight is 90kg.So if he had for example 2g per kilogram he would need 180g but if he was 25% he would only need 150g . Also it depends on mauch carbs he was having. As we all know carbs are protien sparring, in that if you are eating adequite carbohydrates for all your energy requirements the protein can be used solely to rebuid muscle tissue. But if your carbs are low to near zero alot of that protein will be used up as energy, this is of course the reason that you have to increase your protein intake once you start lowering your carbohydrates.

Also anabolics play a big part in the equation as well. As one of the main ways they work is to signal the body to create more muscle tissue, this new muscle of course comes from protein. So the body is alot more efficient at converting protein to muscle ,the requirement for more protien is obvious. A bodybuilder may be able to eat 500g a day whilst on anabolics and grow quite nicely thank you very much. But that same bodybuilder could find he gains more fat than muscle if he was natural and taking in the same amount of protein.

[shruglife]

How much protein for a 100kg bodybuilder?

It depends on his bodyfat % for a start, if he is 10% is lean weight is 90kg.So if he had for example 2g per kilogram he would need 180g but if he was 25% he would only need 150g . Also it depends on mauch carbs he was having. As we all know carbs are protien sparring, in that if you are eating adequite carbohydrates for all your energy requirements the protein can be used solely to rebuid muscle tissue. But if your carbs are low to near zero alot of that protein will be used up as energy, this is of course the reason that you have to increase your protein intake once you start lowering your carbohydrates.

Also anabolics play a big part in the equation as well. As one of the main ways they work is to signal the body to create more muscle tissue, this new muscle of course comes from protein. So the body is alot more efficient at converting protein to muscle ,the requirement for more protien is obvious. A bodybuilder may be able to eat 500g a day whilst on anabolics and grow quite nicely thank you very much. But that same bodybuilder could find he gains more fat than muscle if he was natural and taking in the same amount of protein.

This hypothetical bodybuilder has 0% bodyfat . I chose 100kg simply because it made calculations for others easy. There are certain assumptions you have to make, I couldn't cram into the title "How much protein does a 110kg bodybuilder at 9.1% bodfat need when he is consuming enough carbohydrates to meet his energy requirements and is not taking any performance enhancing drugs which improve his efficiency at converting protein to muscle tissue?".

You bring up an interesting point though. Based on individual genetics, we each have differring abilities to convert protein to muscle tissue so a ratio that provides the most efficient muscle growth for one athlete is not universal. I'm starting to think experimenting with your diet until you find the optimal ratio may be the way to go, albeit difficult (for me anyway) to do.

[goinhard]

Most people will still need thousands of calories, try eating 4000+ calories and getting only 150 grams of protein.

[shruglife]

Most people will still need thousands of calories, try eating 4000+ calories and getting only 150 grams of protein.

Protein/Carbs = 4cals

Fat = 9cals

I only get around that much protein and exceed 4000cals easily with carbs and fat

[HumanPerformance]

How much protein does a 110kg bodybuilder at 9.1% bodfat need when he is consuming enough carbohydrates to meet his energy requirements and is not taking any performance enhancing drugs which improve his efficiency at converting protein to muscle tissue?".

LMAO. Yeah sorry shrug, I suppose I did over complicate the matter

[musclenz]

How much protein for a 100kg bodybuilder?

It depends on his bodyfat % for a start, if he is 10% is lean weight is 90kg.So if he had for example 2g per kilogram he would need 180g but if he was 25% he would only need 150g . Also it depends on mauch carbs he was having. As we all know carbs are protien sparring, in that if you are eating adequite carbohydrates for all your energy requirements the protein can be used solely to rebuid muscle tissue. But if your carbs are low to near zero alot of that protein will be used up as energy, this is of course the reason that you have to increase your protein intake once you start lowering your carbohydrates.

Also anabolics play a big part in the equation as well. As one of the main ways they work is to signal the body to create more muscle tissue, this new muscle of course comes from protein. So the body is alot more efficient at converting protein to muscle ,the requirement for more protien is obvious. A bodybuilder may be able to eat 500g a day whilst on anabolics and grow quite nicely thank you very much. But that same bodybuilder could find he gains more fat than muscle if he was natural and taking in the same amount of protein.

This hypothetical bodybuilder has 0% bodyfat . I chose 100kg simply because it made calculations for others easy. There are certain assumptions you have to make, I couldn't cram into the title "How much protein does a 110kg bodybuilder at 9.1% bodfat need when he is consuming enough carbohydrates to meet his energy requirements and is not taking any performance enhancing drugs which improve his efficiency at converting protein to muscle tissue?".

You bring up an interesting point though. Based on individual genetics, we each have differring abilities to convert protein to muscle tissue so a ratio that provides the most efficient muscle growth for one athlete is not universal. I'm starting to think experimenting with your diet until you find the optimal ratio may be the way to go, albeit difficult (for me anyway) to do.

THis is a very good point & this will differ in the individual if AAS is being used. There is no hard & fast rule. It is also subject to how many calories you are consuming in your food plan ie 4000cal you might have 300g protein, 5000 cals may have close to 400g to keep the ratio of protein/carbs/fats in balance. Don't lose sight of the fact that carbs are just as important as protein in the BBing Diet.

[Matrix]

It's important to remember Carbohydrate is Protein sparing, so if your carbs are high in a mass building phase you can keep a moderate intake of protein (it's cheaper too).

As you diet, however, your need for dietary protein increases as you lower energy from carbs and/or fats.

[Optimass]

Also anabolics play a big part in the equation as well. As one of the main ways they work is to signal the body to create more muscle tissue, this new muscle of course comes from protein. So the body is alot more efficient at converting protein to muscle ,the requirement for more protien is obvious. A bodybuilder may be able to eat 500g a day whilst on anabolics and grow quite nicely thank you very much. But that same bodybuilder could find he gains more fat than muscle if he was natural and taking in the same amount of protein.

Agree with HP and MNZ - programming for enhanced athletes would certainly require more protein to gain the full benefit of your cycle.

I voted 200g (would program 220g for a natty of that weight SHRUG, but you didn't have it as an option) - based on age .. I would drop this to 180 - 190 once over 45 years for a natty as the bodies test levels may start to lower more significantly. You have to work in round figure though as even if you had the bf% done you are never going to be able to account for the varying influence we all face as individuals. But it doesn't hurt to go a little over as the other two options a certainly more likely to store as fat.

The only thing I would challenge HP is ... and I may be reading it incorrect (bold) .... suggests that AAS is the catalyst to hyperplasia - although it has been suggested IGF-1 and HGH as being the more probable source. (AAS = hypertrophy for sure)

This is the holy grail of our sport in my opinion :nod: The bird study is the only real tangible study done ... suggests muscle fibre would split under stretch > (obviously hormone and nutro all need to line up) - not sure if there is any other text around to support ???

Muscle fiber splitting in stretch-enlarged avian muscle. Antonio J, Gonyea WJ.

University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center, Department of Cell Biology and Neuroscience, Dallas 75235-9039.

This study examined the role of longitudinal fiber splitting in enlarged anterior latissimus dorsi (ALD) muscle of adult quail. Muscle hypertrophy was induced using a model of progressive stretch overload (PSO) (5). After 16 and 28 d of PSO, muscle mass in the stretched ALD muscle increased significantly (P < 0.05) 188% and 294%, respectively, when compared with the intra-animal control muscle. Muscle length increased significantly (P < 0.05) in the stretched ALD muscle vs the intra-animal control by approximately 77% for both groups. Fiber number, which was assessed using direct counts after nitric acid digestion, did not change in the 16-d group; however, the 28-d stretched ALD muscle exhibited a 30% increase (P < 0.05) in fiber number vs the intra-animal control muscle. Furthermore, the frequency of splitting (i.e., branching) fibers was less than 0.3% in all muscles examined except the 28-d stretched ALD muscle. The 28-d stretched ALD muscle had 5.25% of its muscle fibers exhibiting split profiles. These results demonstrate that PSO produces effects unlike chronic stretch overload in that longitudinal fiber splitting may contribute significantly to an increase in fiber number.

[shruglife]

How much protein for a 100kg bodybuilder?

It depends on his bodyfat % for a start, if he is 10% is lean weight is 90kg.So if he had for example 2g per kilogram he would need 180g but if he was 25% he would only need 150g . Also it depends on mauch carbs he was having. As we all know carbs are protien sparring, in that if you are eating adequite carbohydrates for all your energy requirements the protein can be used solely to rebuid muscle tissue. But if your carbs are low to near zero alot of that protein will be used up as energy, this is of course the reason that you have to increase your protein intake once you start lowering your carbohydrates.

Also anabolics play a big part in the equation as well. As one of the main ways they work is to signal the body to create more muscle tissue, this new muscle of course comes from protein. So the body is alot more efficient at converting protein to muscle ,the requirement for more protien is obvious. A bodybuilder may be able to eat 500g a day whilst on anabolics and grow quite nicely thank you very much. But that same bodybuilder could find he gains more fat than muscle if he was natural and taking in the same amount of protein.

This hypothetical bodybuilder has 0% bodyfat . I chose 100kg simply because it made calculations for others easy. There are certain assumptions you have to make, I couldn't cram into the title "How much protein does a 110kg bodybuilder at 9.1% bodfat need when he is consuming enough carbohydrates to meet his energy requirements and is not taking any performance enhancing drugs which improve his efficiency at converting protein to muscle tissue?".

You bring up an interesting point though. Based on individual genetics, we each have differring abilities to convert protein to muscle tissue so a ratio that provides the most efficient muscle growth for one athlete is not universal. I'm starting to think experimenting with your diet until you find the optimal ratio may be the way to go, albeit difficult (for me anyway) to do.

THis is a very good point & this will differ in the individual if AAS is being used. There is no hard & fast rule. It is also subject to how many calories you are consuming in your food plan ie 4000cal you might have 300g protein, 5000 cals may have close to 400g to keep the ratio of protein/carbs/fats in balance. Don't lose sight of the fact that carbs are just as important as protein in the BBing Diet.

Yeah I completely agree. The question is a bit one-dimensional, I asked in my post below the poll about carbs and fat but I couldn't include it in the poll itself because there would be too many variations i.e.

300p/600c/200f

300p/700c/200f

300p/800c/100f

and so on...

Also anabolics play a big part in the equation as well. As one of the main ways they work is to signal the body to create more muscle tissue, this new muscle of course comes from protein. So the body is alot more efficient at converting protein to muscle ,the requirement for more protien is obvious. A bodybuilder may be able to eat 500g a day whilst on anabolics and grow quite nicely thank you very much. But that same bodybuilder could find he gains more fat than muscle if he was natural and taking in the same amount of protein.

Agree with HP and MNZ - programming for enhanced athletes would certainly require more protein to gain the full benefit of your cycle.

I voted 200g (would program 220g for a natty of that weight SHRUG, but you didn't have it as an option) - based on age .. I would drop this to 180 - 190 once over 45 years for a natty as the bodies test levels may start to lower more significantly. You have to work in round figure though as even if you had the bf% done you are never going to be able to account for the varying influence we all face as individuals. But it doesn't hurt to go a little over as the other two options a certainly more likely to store as fat.

The only thing I would challenge HP is ... and I may be reading it incorrect (bold) .... suggests that AAS is the catalyst to hyperplasia - although it has been suggested IGF-1 and HGH as being the more probable source. (AAS = hypertrophy for sure)

This is the holy grail of our sport in my opinion :nod: The bird study is the only real tangible study done ... suggests muscle fibre would split under stretch > (obviously hormone and nutro all need to line up) - not sure if there is any other text around to support ???

Muscle fiber splitting in stretch-enlarged avian muscle. Antonio J, Gonyea WJ.

University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center, Department of Cell Biology and Neuroscience, Dallas 75235-9039.

This study examined the role of longitudinal fiber splitting in enlarged anterior latissimus dorsi (ALD) muscle of adult quail. Muscle hypertrophy was induced using a model of progressive stretch overload (PSO) (5). After 16 and 28 d of PSO, muscle mass in the stretched ALD muscle increased significantly (P < 0.05) 188% and 294%, respectively, when compared with the intra-animal control muscle. Muscle length increased significantly (P < 0.05) in the stretched ALD muscle vs the intra-animal control by approximately 77% for both groups. Fiber number, which was assessed using direct counts after nitric acid digestion, did not change in the 16-d group; however, the 28-d stretched ALD muscle exhibited a 30% increase (P < 0.05) in fiber number vs the intra-animal control muscle. Furthermore, the frequency of splitting (i.e., branching) fibers was less than 0.3% in all muscles examined except the 28-d stretched ALD muscle. The 28-d stretched ALD muscle had 5.25% of its muscle fibers exhibiting split profiles. These results demonstrate that PSO produces effects unlike chronic stretch overload in that longitudinal fiber splitting may contribute significantly to an increase in fiber number.

Yeah I allowed 2 choices to be made so if you wanted to select something close to 225g you could select 200g and 250g. If the choices went up in smaller increments the list would get too long and the range you could choose from would be compromised. If you want to be specific you could just post the amount you would choose, which you did. I like your choice though it doesn't seem excessive and from the photos I've seen of you you look like you have had some pretty solid gains over the years.

As for your comments on AAS, IGF-1, HGH and hyperplasia that all went over my head :pfft:. I'm sure others benefited from it though.

[diamond]

I'm suprised that more people have not commented on the vid of Kai.

There's the next mr olympia without a doubt. The guy's a freak. No one is going to get close to him this year.

[shruglife]

I'm suprised that more people have not commented on the vid of Kai.

There's the next mr olympia without a doubt. The guy's a freak. No one is going to get close to him this year.

Haha yeah he's such a GC too. Very eccentric, very funny.

"Garbage! Lies!"

"Thank God for Carnivor Muscle Mass"

"We tryna bring Gorilla muscle to the Olympia"

Kai is the man.

[HumanPerformance]

Also anabolics play a big part in the equation as well. As one of the main ways they work is to signal the body to create more muscle tissue, this new muscle of course comes from protein. So the body is alot more efficient at converting protein to muscle ,the requirement for more protien is obvious. A bodybuilder may be able to eat 500g a day whilst on anabolics and grow quite nicely thank you very much. But that same bodybuilder could find he gains more fat than muscle if he was natural and taking in the same amount of protein.

Agree with HP and MNZ - programming for enhanced athletes would certainly require more protein to gain the full benefit of your cycle.

I voted 200g (would program 220g for a natty of that weight SHRUG, but you didn't have it as an option) - based on age .. I would drop this to 180 - 190 once over 45 years for a natty as the bodies test levels may start to lower more significantly. You have to work in round figure though as even if you had the bf% done you are never going to be able to account for the varying influence we all face as individuals. But it doesn't hurt to go a little over as the other two options a certainly more likely to store as fat.

The only thing I would challenge HP is ... and I may be reading it incorrect (bold) .... suggests that AAS is the catalyst to hyperplasia - although it has been suggested IGF-1 and HGH as being the more probable source. (AAS = hypertrophy for sure)

This is the holy grail of our sport in my opinion :nod: The bird study is the only real tangible study done ... suggests muscle fibre would split under stretch > (obviously hormone and nutro all need to line up) - not sure if there is any other text around to support ???

Muscle fiber splitting in stretch-enlarged avian muscle. Antonio J, Gonyea WJ.

University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center, Department of Cell Biology and Neuroscience, Dallas 75235-9039.

This study examined the role of longitudinal fiber splitting in enlarged anterior latissimus dorsi (ALD) muscle of adult quail. Muscle hypertrophy was induced using a model of progressive stretch overload (PSO) (5). After 16 and 28 d of PSO, muscle mass in the stretched ALD muscle increased significantly (P < 0.05) 188% and 294%, respectively, when compared with the intra-animal control muscle. Muscle length increased significantly (P < 0.05) in the stretched ALD muscle vs the intra-animal control by approximately 77% for both groups. Fiber number, which was assessed using direct counts after nitric acid digestion, did not change in the 16-d group; however, the 28-d stretched ALD muscle exhibited a 30% increase (P < 0.05) in fiber number vs the intra-animal control muscle. Furthermore, the frequency of splitting (i.e., branching) fibers was less than 0.3% in all muscles examined except the 28-d stretched ALD muscle. The 28-d stretched ALD muscle had 5.25% of its muscle fibers exhibiting split profiles. These results demonstrate that PSO produces effects unlike chronic stretch overload in that longitudinal fiber splitting may contribute significantly to an increase in fiber number.

Yes Optimas you misread or at least misunderstood the statement about AAS "signaling the body to create more muscle tissue' (although in re reading it, it does sound like what you said ) I meant that AAS increase muscle merely through the individulal muscle cells increasing in size (i.e hypertrophy) not through dormant satellite cell activation or spltting of individual musle fibres to create new ones (i.e hyperplasia) no such luck for AAS users Im affraid :wink: . You made an exellent point on the protein requirements of people over 45 due to there lowerd T levels. That was completely correct, but I didnt even think of it.