Chest Exercises

[xen]

Well your workout seems very sensible. And agreed re: convincing others. Wasn't expecting people to accept what I was said, this is a bodybuilding forum after all. Good to try with the new guy though, before he becomes brain washed

All I can say in favour of my lower volume, compound movement focus workout is that I've always had linear progression, i.e. I add 2.5kgs to every lift, each time I workout, and no plateaus yet (touch wood).

[shruglife]

Sure, there may be more emphasis on paticular muscles by chaging anlges (e.g. Clavicular Head of the Pectoralis Major), but if you have limited recovery ability (i.e. you're a natural athelete) why wouldn't you focus on the lift that involved the most muscles in you pecs/upper body complex and placed them under the greatest stress?

I'm a natural athlete and I want to develop my Upper and Lower Chest rather than placing all the emphasis on my Lower Chest. I don't see why that goal is only limited to steroid users. We are talking about developing the entire Chest and I don't see how placing emphasis on the Upper Chest also by doing Incline Bench detracts from your workout at all?? :-s

Power lifters use fewer reps than bodybuilders. The rule of thumb is <5 reps and you're improving Central Nervous System recruitment and more than this and you're building muscle. It's a trade off to some extent. That's why powerlifters are so much stronger than bodybuilders, and Olympic lifters trump both when speed-strength (i.e. this is technically power lifting) is considered.

I'm very aware of this, that was my point. If you want to do low rep/volume work like a powerlifter that's fine. You will get stronger faster but limit the amount of muscle mass you could attain which is not what you want if your a bodybuilder :?

Yep for sure. However, are you taking longer to recover? And how long do you need? You could be compromising you mid-to-long term gains without knowing it. But like I said if you're on the 'roids this is all academic. The ideal way to train is to stress the muscle just enough to stimulate a growth response and no more.

This is one dilemma I agree with. Currently I hit my large muscle groups like Chest, Back, Quads, Hams once a week and smaller muscle groups like Tris and Bis twice a week. The more sets you hit your muscles with the more you damage them and the longer they take to recover, the only reason I hit Tris/Bis more often is because being smaller they recover faster irrelevant of how hard I hit them. I am currently experimenting with this program and recording my gains and in a while I may choose to lower volume and increase frequency to see if gains are faster but I was seeing solid gains with this program before my operation.

Well your workout seems very sensible. And agreed re: convincing others. Wasn't expecting people to accept what I was said, this is a bodybuilding forum after all. Good to try with the new guy though, before he becomes brain washed

All I can say in favour of my lower volume, compound movement focus workout is that I've always had linear progression, i.e. I add 2.5kgs to every lift, each time I workout, and no plateaus yet (touch wood).

I agree with the brainwashed bodybuilder phenomenon which is my I try to keep my beliefs malleable and use logic to reason why one method of training is superior to another. If you adding 2.5kgs to your lifts each week is what your supporting your argument with though I'm afraid I'm not convinced. I was adding 2.5kg to my Bench each week and I was keeping around the 10rep range. My friend who is a lot more on top of his nutrition than me is making faster gains still so this 'linear progression' your making isn't out of the ordinary? If gaining strength was what we were talking about then I would just say switch to a powerlifting program. We are talking about building mass on the Chest and 'linear progression' in strength doesn't correspond to linear progression in muscle mass. Powerlifters are an example of that as you mentoned earlier, they train to improve the connective pathways of the central nervous system and not muscle mass to the same degree as a bodybuilder.

[xen]

I meant 2.5kgs each time I lift. I squat 3 times a week for instance so that's around 7.5kgs a week although I sometimes break my own rules and get a 10kg+ increase when I'm feeling strong.

I'm sure the relationship between strength and mass is nonlinear, however getting a linear gain in strength for reps above 5 is going to mean signifcant and ongoing mass gains. I mean who knows how long these gains will last, I may burn out soon and have to change my programme, but if not I'll be lifting some serious weight in relatively little time.

Anyway, I think we may be drifting off topic I think the guy should evaluate both approaches himself and see which he likes best, or better yet alternate between them! i.e. alternate say every 3 months between a higher volume/lower intensity routine and a lower volume/higher intensity one. I might just do this myself

[shruglife]

I meant 2.5kgs each time I lift. I squat 3 times a week for instance so that's around 7.5kgs a week although I sometimes break my own rules and get a 10kg+ increase when I'm feeling strong.

I'm sure the relationship between strength and mass is nonlinear, however getting a linear gain in strength for reps above 5 is going to mean signifcant and ongoing mass gains. I mean who knows how long these gains will last, I may burn out soon and have to change my programme, but if not I'll be lifting some serious weight in relatively little time.

Anyway, I think we may be drifting off topic I think the guy should evaluate both approaches himself and see which he likes best, or better yet alternate between them!

Agreed :wink:

[Mrbig]

shruglife all i want is for you to look at it where im coming from az having studied the human anantomy and how it works etc not just doing what this pro did and that pro I have started to experiment different training styles and over the last 2months havent done any isolation exercises or different variations of angles etc and dropping how many days I train to allow for more recovery etc I have made significant gains in size and strength I was like you and would not believe what I was being told but I put my emotions and ego aside and gave it a go and from wat Im seeing In my own reults and the clients I train that maybe we dont have to do so much exercises and different angles etc but we all knoe the number 1 key element to muscle growth is food not how many reps you do if your consuming more calories than you burn and are damaging your muscle fibres enough they will lay down more proteins and tissue but look at the biggest bodybuilders around they are all strong motherfuckers

[musclenz]

Excellent points being debated on this thread. it might have gone off topic a bit but with regard to EMG studies there was one done by Barnett around 1995 that suggested that there was not much difference in flat vs incline / decline bench.

Heres one that supports incline bench -

http://www.angelfire.com/tx/APATX/artil ... Press.html

& heres one that supports decline bench -

http://www.edulife.com.br/dados%5CArtig ... itoral.pdf

I guess Zen we could argue this aspect of the discussion forever.

Then I found this article that surfaced on Steriod Super Board back in 2006. Yes I was a member :pfft: I'm not too sure how accurate this information is but I will put it up for your consideration. Actually I'm tempted to put it up as a new post. Maybe??

-Electromyographical Research and Maximum Muscle Fiber Stimulation (Eric Knight B.A. Hon. Kinesiology, CPT)

Electromyographical (EMG) Research is an essential research tool allowing physiologists to determine the role of muscles during specific movements. EMG is a scientific method of measuring the level of excitation. This is done by placing electrodes over your body and recording the level of muscle activity induced by an exercise. A study was conducted to find which exercises cause the greatest amount of activity within each muscle group and, as a consequence, determine which exercises will produce the greatest gains in mass and strength. This study was conducted by Tudor O. Bompa, PhD & Lorenzo J. Cornacchia. Both men and women were used in the sudy and all subjects had at least two years experience with resistance training.

Here are the results of that study:

(100% would signify maximum muscle fiber stimulation)

Pectoralis Major

Decline dumbbell bench press ----------------93%

Decline bench press, Olympic bar(OB)---------89

Push-ups between benches --------------------88

Flat dumbbell bench press -------------------87

Flat bench press (OB) -----------------------85

Flat dumbbell flyes --------------------------84

Pectoralis Minor

Incline dumbbell bench press ----------------91%

Incline bench press (OB) --------------------85

Incline dumbbell flyes -----------------------83

Incline bench press (smith machine) ---------81

Medial Deltoids

Incline dumbbell (db) side laterals ----- 66%

Standing db side laterals -------63

Seated db side laterals -----62

Cable side laterals -----47

Posterior Deltoids

Standing db bent laterals ----- 85%

Seated db bent laterals -----83

Standing cable bent laterals -----77

Anterior Deltoids

Seated front db press -----79%

Standing front db raises -----73

Seated front barbell press -----61

Biceps brachii (long head)

Preacher curls (Ob) -------------------- 90%

Incline seated Db curls (alternate) ------ 88

Standing biceps curls (Ob/narrow grip)--- 86

Standing Db curls (alternate) ----------- 84

Concentration Db curls ------------------ 80

Standing curls (Ob/wide grip)------------ 63

Standing E-Z curls (wide grip) ----------- 61

Triceps brachii (outer head)

Decline extensions (Ob) ------------------ 92%

Triceps pressdowns (angled bar) ----------- 90

Dips with a bench --------------------------87

One-arm cable extensions (reverse grip) - 85

Overhead rope extensions ------------------ 85

Seated one-arm Db extensions (neutral grip)- 82

Close-grip bench press (Ob) --------------- 72

Latissimus dorsi (back)

Bent-over Bb rows ---------------------------93%

One-arm Db rows -----------------------------91

T-bar rows ----------------------------------89

Lat pulldowns to the front ------------------86

Seated pulley rows --------------------------83

Rectus femoris (quads)

Safety squats (90 degree angle, shoulder width stance) ----88%

Seated leg extensions (toes straight) -------86

Hack squats (90 degree angle, shoulder width stance) ----78

Leg press (110 degree angle) ----------------76

Smith machine (90 degree angle, shoulder width stance) ----60

Biceps femoris (hamstring)

Standing leg curls --------------------------82%

Lying leg curls -----------------------------71

Seated leg curls ----------------------------58

Modified hamstring deads --------------------56

Semitendinosus (inner hamstring)

Seated leg curls ----------------------------88

Standing leg curls --------------------------79

Lying leg curls -----------------------------70

Modified hamstring deads --------------------63

Gastrocnemius (calf muscle)

Donkey raises -------------------------------80

Standing one-leg raises ---------------------79

Standing two-leg raises ---------------------68

Seated raises -------------------------------61

[steak]

facinating read!!!

Awesome post with those % MNZ

[thatwaslight]

awesome read Musclenz!!

[xen]

MrBig: wow someone who seems to have a similar opinion to me, thought I was all alone on this one

MuscleNZ: Nice post, thanks for the info. Was reading the first link. Looks like the flat bench hits the lower pecs better than decline, which I'm surprised about?? Also, the upper pec is better stressed by the incline bench, but only just with the flat bench being "found to be very close" in effect.

So I don't think I was far wrong recommending flat benches to the original poster, but I guess variety is the key after all, I may have to give inclines a go sometime. But I still maintain that you probably shouldn't do them all in a single workout

[Specter]

A Quick Question..but I have been training my Chest the last 6 weeks starting off on 4-5 sets of Incline Press and followed by 4-5 sets of Incline flyes and by then I try to get some flat bench chest presses out but my tris are screwed and I am using not even half the weights I would normally if i chose to start off doing flat bench press first..Incline is definitley a muscle builder and showing great results..but I have changed my workout around and switching back to flat bench dumbell chest press to get some strength back in the chest and see how this will affect my chest when I swap back to starting off with inclines in another 6 weeks...is this a good idea or not...has anyone tied this before? :-s

[xen]

It's relatively common to "periodise" excercises, although not usually those that are so close in function (i.e. flat benches vs inclines). I reckon do 4-5 sets of flat benches and a couple of finishing sets afterwards of incline flyes. Really work hard to keep increasing the weight on the benches. Track what happens and if you stall with your gains readjust.

[Deafness]

Thanks guys for the thread, certainly cover a couple of aspects I wanted to know, being large in the BF% (not as much) the gyno from excessive fat, it is a struggle to pull the chest into shape, but I realise I just must keep at it, no doubt I'll over come.

My Chest exercises I do are the Incline, Decline, Flat bench press with dumb bells 3-4 10-12 plus warmup (weight ranges about 26-30kgs) I finish off my chest routine with either cable crossover or db flys.. I feel this is great for me, I dont mind if your would suggest anything else.

I should mention I work Chest and delts on friday

Ps thanks that post MuscleNZ shall talk to you about the good form, thing later.

[Brown10]

Is it a good idea to attempt differant exercise's week to week? Or best to stick to just the single routine throughout and gradually increase the resistance???

[xen]

I'd say your volume is way too high; is that like 12 to 16 sets for chest? You really only need to do one of the bench variations in a workout. Also I'd drop the rep range to 6-8, but I like to increase my strength too while I lift.

[xen]

Brown10: I'd say definitely the latter. I wouldn't change from a compound excercise that I was increasing my strength in, unless I had a good reason (e.g. injury).

However, changing should be fine, but do it for a small group of compound excercises (i.e. don't go replacing benches with flyes for instance) and keeping adding weight to bar each time you do one of them (i.e. track your workouts!).

I'm reading a book called Dinosaur Training (a well known book about strength training) and the guy uses this kind of approach. He has a pool of compound excercises, not a routine. He and his training partners turn up and decide to do one or two of them that they haven't done in a while, then they go hard.

[BANNER]

You can't overload your Chest effectively without BB work.

I dont do flat bench(rotator issues) but I superset alot of my incline movements with different fly movements Eg Incline dumbells , cable crossovas, incline barbell, incline dumbell flys, decline barbell, decline flys and then smash watevas left with the isolateral setaed peck deck with push ups AND THEN IM TOASTED :nod: :nod:

Interesting... If you have Rotator issues I would have thought Incline movements would be the one thing you couldn't do since more stress is placed on your Shoulders as the angle of the bench with the ground increases.

Yeah I know wat you mean, aparently a tendon was pinched bewteen my joint and only gets iritate when i do flat barbell. The wider i place my hands on the bar the worse it gets. I dont bother tryin to figure it out I just dont flat bench anymore :nod: