Cardio and building muscle

[recent addict]

I've only recently started trying to really BUILD muscle as opposed to keep fit through weight training and I've learnt HEAPS from this site and others.

The mantras of 'lift, eat, rest' and 'eat big to get big' make sense to me, as does the idea that intense cardio is only going to eat in to muscle gains and burn all the calories we've tried so hard to eat. As a result I've definitely increased size (a bit) over the last month or two and have said bye bye to my abs for the time being.

Then I came across this article which champions short intense cadio sessions, even while bulking. I'm interested to know what anyone thinks of it?

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/satter2.htm

[Android]

yes there's nothing wrong with trying to stay lean and fit while bulking, its a valid regime.

The excess calories burnt will not go towards bulking though so although you can bulk doing this you can't reach the same size as if you ate the same but didn't burn the calories away with cardio.

So the choice is either smaller bulk, or bigger bulk.

Most choose bigger bulk.

When you are bigger and loaded with calories you are not just bigger but also stronger which in turn means heavier weights are possible, which in turn means you can stress the muscles more.

Other reasons for wanting to not burn excess calories are for the anabolic state. The article makes nice points about anabolic state when doing cardio but doesn't point out that you're anabolic with excess calories as well, so both being slightly equal the difference is still how big you can get during the bulk...no cardio equals bigger.

[recent addict]

Cheers Android, I guess it comes down to finding the balance that's right for the individual

[Android]

yeah, once you have your goal in place deciding which way to go is easier.

If you were to say "I want to be 3kg bigger and still lean by xmas" then the cardio way would suit best.

If you said "I want to be 3kg bigger by xmas and then add another 5kg next year" the bulk with no cardio might be better.

Your life mate, you decide :-)

For me being bulky around xmas isn't cool. You go to the beach with no abs and sit down and your spare tyre hangs over your shorts, not a good look. (sorry no offence TFB!) 8) ohh I think I just did offend...

[nemesis]

Hey Android, I'm still learning (i guess you never stop in this sport) so wondered if you could explain for me why you say it would be better to not do cardio if I wanna add 5kg next year as well but okay to do it if you only wanna add bulk this year? Does cardio inhibit or limit muscle growth?

I'm wanting to bulk up as well as lose some of this vast amount of fat I'm carrying but also wanting to add muscle consistently next year and every year onwards.

Cheers even if you can steer me towards where to look for the info if it's too long to tell me yourself.

[1day]

You go to the beach with no abs and sit down and your spare tyre hangs over your shorts, not a good look. (sorry no offence TFB!) 8) ohh I think I just did offend...

LMAO!!!! u big bully :pfft:

[Android]

Hey Android, I'm still learning (i guess you never stop in this sport) so wondered if you could explain for me why you say it would be better to not do cardio if I wanna add 5kg next year as well but okay to do it if you only wanna add bulk this year? Does cardio inhibit or limit muscle growth?

I'm wanting to bulk up as well as lose some of this vast amount of fat I'm carrying but also wanting to add muscle consistently next year and every year onwards.

Cheers even if you can steer me towards where to look for the info if it's too long to tell me yourself.

I thought if someone is dead set on bulking they should just dig it in and bulk. It can save time and money to get the bulking done and done fast.

Cardio causes temporary catabolism yet when bulking you want to stay anabolic 24/7.

Having said that some people do gain lean year after year in small but steady increments and that's ok too....I sometimes forget not everyone is hellbent on getting huge altho I can't understand why not

[ramy]

with that article i agree with every point 100% i live buy nearly all of them however i wouldnt do any sort of cardio when gaining muscle pre workout youll f*** yourself and post workout you needa get straight home and start the recovery stage. however i believe that intense cardio training from time to time can benefit your respiratory system help you in your breathing when your doing big movements like barbell lunges, squats, deadlifts, benching when you rely almost completely on your breathing. its the same with running on a tredmil every time you go further its all because your training your respiratory system learning how to breathe in an anaerobic state. this is exactly the same in intense weight training

i only do cardio to warm up if its cold or to stretch for example on back day ill row and bike row to stretch my back and bike to stretch my hams.

[musclenz]

yeah, once you have your goal in place deciding which way to go is easier.

If you were to say "I want to be 3kg bigger and still lean by xmas" then the cardio way would suit best.

If you said "I want to be 3kg bigger by xmas and then add another 5kg next year" the bulk with no cardio might be better.

Your life mate, you decide :-)

For me being bulky around xmas isn't cool. You go to the beach with no abs and sit down and your spare tyre hangs over your shorts, not a good look. (sorry no offence TFB!) 8) ohh I think I just did offend...

Android, be interested to get your expert opinion on exactly how much stored muscle protein is actually burnt by the body in cardio. I believe it is correct in saying the the body prefers to burn carbs & fat before proteins, & that it takes extreme circumstances of exhaustion before it slips into that final state. ie marathons etc endurance racing. So generally, would you think that much, if any, muscle is lost during moderate cardio, steady state in preference to HIIT perhaps, especially if BBers were using high protein, BCAA's & adequate diet? Is this in fact largely another BBing myth?

[teamfatboy]

For me being bulky around xmas isn't cool. You go to the beach with no abs and sit down and your spare tyre hangs over your shorts, not a good look. (sorry no offence TFB!) 8) ohh I think I just did offend...

Android, if I thought you'd actually seen me at a beach, maybe I'd be worried :grin:

Hell, it's only a space-saver tyre now - it used to be not just the spare tyre, but a full set of heavy duty tractor wheels a couple of years back.

But coming back on-point, what is your view about muscle loss during medium intensity cardio (as opposed to HIIT) assuming (as MuscleNZ does) proper nutritional support in terms of protein and essential amino acids ?

[Android]

yeah, once you have your goal in place deciding which way to go is easier.

If you were to say "I want to be 3kg bigger and still lean by xmas" then the cardio way would suit best.

If you said "I want to be 3kg bigger by xmas and then add another 5kg next year" the bulk with no cardio might be better.

Your life mate, you decide :-)

For me being bulky around xmas isn't cool. You go to the beach with no abs and sit down and your spare tyre hangs over your shorts, not a good look. (sorry no offence TFB!) 8) ohh I think I just did offend...

Android, be interested to get your expert opinion on exactly how much stored muscle protein is actually burnt by the body in cardio. I believe it is correct in saying the the body prefers to burn carbs & fat before proteins, & that it takes extreme circumstances of exhaustion before it slips into that final state. ie marathons etc endurance racing. So generally, would you think that much, if any, muscle is lost during moderate cardio, steady state in preference to HIIT perhaps, especially if BBers were using high protein, BCAA's & adequate diet? Is this in fact largely another BBing myth?

I'll give it a go, if anything doesn't sit right let me know, this is how I believe things work and I make decisions about my diet and training with these thoughts in mind.

TFB I think this answers your question too but shout out if not...was just kidding about your spare tyre! :nod:

I believe "protein turnover" is common at any time during exercise and it's common to sip intra-workout drinks loaded with BCAAs to offset the demand.

Not just for the energy you expend running (in calories lost) but in minor things we take for granted... jogging requires continuous muscle contractions for instance and we can't believe that all they require is basic calories to fire off the muscles, there's conversions of amino acids going on all of the time.

So yes if you supply BCAAs before or after I think the protein turnover would be effectively neutral, supplying all that was lost. In answer to your question this equates to no muscle loss from cardio if diet and BCAAs etc re supplied adequately.

I believe the reason we increase protein intake during cutting is because we are "less anabolic" than during the bulking phase (cortisol levels go up from exercise and restricted diets) and we need to compensate for the rise in protein turnover.

Our workouts are just as intense during cutting as during bulking and muscles still need repairing so there's greater requirement for protein, not just for growth (which we know slows right down during cutting....otherwise we could bulk up during cutting right?) , but also for the protein turnover that goes into exercise like cardio and workouts.

Perhaps my use of the word catabolic is incorrect. I meant "non-anabolic".

During the time of cardio you are not going to be in the most ideal anabolic state which I would described as "swimming in nutrients and rested or at least unstressed".

So I agree with the myth (which means it isn't a myth).

You do need extra BCAAs/ protein during the weeks of cardio to offset the additional protein turnover incurred from doing the cardio and dieting and usual workouts. If you do supply those muscle loss is prevented.

[musclenz]

I think this supports your case as well Android. I guess this supports the use of BCAAs immediately after hard cardio or resistance training & is the optimum time to use insulin or create an insulin response using high carbs such as dextrose etc. However it does not answer the question about how much MPB actually goes on. Need to pay to get the full text.

Human muscle protein synthesis and breakdown during and after exercise

Vinod Kumar, Philip Atherton, Kenneth Smith, and Michael J. Rennie

University of Nottingham, School of Graduate Entry Medicine and Health, Derby, United Kingdom

Submitted 13 November 2008 ; accepted in final form 17 January 2009

ABSTRACT

Skeletal muscle demonstrates extraordinary mutability in its responses to exercise of different modes, intensity, and duration, which must involve alterations of muscle protein turnover, both acutely and chronically. Here, we bring together information on the alterations in the rates of synthesis and degradation of human muscle protein by different types of exercise and the influences of nutrition, age, and sexual dimorphism. Where possible, we summarize the likely changes in activity of signaling proteins associated with control of protein turnover. Exercise of both the resistance and nonresistance types appears to depress muscle protein synthesis (MPS), whereas muscle protein breakdown (MPB) probably remains unchanged during exercise. However, both MPS and MPB are elevated after exercise in the fasted state, when net muscle protein balance remains negative. Positive net balance is achieved only when amino acid availability is increased, thereby raising MPS markedly. However, postexercise-increased amino acid availability is less important for inhibiting MPB than insulin, the secretion of which is stimulated most by glucose availability, without itself stimulating MPS. Exercise training appears to increase basal muscle protein turnover, with differential responses of the myofibrillar and mitochondrial protein fractions to acute exercise in the trained state. Aging reduces the responses of myofibrillar protein and anabolic signaling to resistance exercise. There appear to be few, if any, differences in the response of young women and young men to acute exercise, although there are indications that, in older women, the responses may be blunted more than in older men.

Link to full article http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/content/a ... 106/6/2026

[Optimass]

yeah, once you have your goal in place deciding which way to go is easier.

If you were to say "I want to be 3kg bigger and still lean by xmas" then the cardio way would suit best.

If you said "I want to be 3kg bigger by xmas and then add another 5kg next year" the bulk with no cardio might be better.

Your life mate, you decide :-)

For me being bulky around xmas isn't cool. You go to the beach with no abs and sit down and your spare tyre hangs over your shorts, not a good look. (sorry no offence TFB!) 8) ohh I think I just did offend...

Android, be interested to get your expert opinion on exactly how much stored muscle protein is actually burnt by the body in cardio. I believe it is correct in saying the the body prefers to burn carbs & fat before proteins, & that it takes extreme circumstances of exhaustion before it slips into that final state. ie marathons etc endurance racing. So generally, would you think that much, if any, muscle is lost during moderate cardio, steady state in preference to HIIT perhaps, especially if BBers were using high protein, BCAA's & adequate diet? Is this in fact largely another BBing myth?

I agree it's a myth - don't believe it's possible for the body to burn muscle proteins in the presence of carbs (Glucose). I think its more about limitations fromm perspective ..... you need to consider how much trauma you cause your body at high intensity cardio over long periods ... i.e its generally believed that over 2 grams protein per kg /per day is excessive for an active male because of limitations as to how much protein can be broken down and functionally used - if this was the case one would think that causing significant trauma by moderate to high cardio sessions on top of a substancial restistance routine would create a situation where the body simply can't keep up with the amount of repair required.

A good example of this is the effect of long term anorexia - many who suffer from the disorder, also demonstrate many compulsive behaviours other than just not eating. One of which more commonly is over training. Most anorexics I have been exposed to still eat small amounts which will include carbs. Protein to a lesser degree as it has a high fat count ..... because of the exercise and low dietry intake over a prolonged period they will more commonly develop issues with their heart - i.e not enough going in to repair the bodies primary muscular support system.

in this scenario the person would suffer

- Dangerous heart rhythms, including slow rhythms known as bradycardia, may develop. Such abnormalities can show up even in teenagers with anorexia.

- Blood flow is reduced.

- Blood pressure may drop.

- The heart muscles starve, losing size.

- Cholesterol levels tend to rise

- Reproductive hormones, including estrogen and dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA), are lower. Estrogen is important for healthy hearts and bones. --

- DHEA, a weak male hormone, may also be important for bone health and for other functions.

- Thyroid hormones are lower.

- Stress hormones are higher.

- Growth hormones are lower. Children and adolescents with anorexia may experience retarded growth.

So IMO overtraining or over traumatising will pretty much put you in a similar state - especially if there are limitations (and there are) in how much protein you can functionly use for repair over a given period. (supports Android Theory too re: Hormonal influence).

Happy to be challenged on this as there are a lot of differing opinions which is also open to interpretation.

....

[Android]

I cringe at the use of the word protein, it's crass and is a convenient word to describe a collection of amino acids (not even complete ones sometimes) but I'll try and get over that here :-)

you believe it is a myth?

So if you were to help someone lose weight and recommended cardio etc you wouldn't tell them to increase their protein to ensure they don't lose muscle mass?

Where would the amino acids required to function come from to us to perform the running motion we call cardio? There isn't an actual protein store in the body there is only the concept of a Nitrogen Pool.

For most parts of the body the proteins have half-lifes of several months, but hormones are recycled minute by minute and this is a great example of protein turnover happening without even exercising. Some aminos are catabolized for energy and some for ammonia too.

While I mention energy can I diverge here...protein is a crass way to describe the various amino acids we know that. I've seen literature somewhere that we use 5% of protein for energy, sometimes as much as 15% for high intensity training. This is likely to be L-Glutamine but we still need to consume protein or supplement if we are to offset this loss. Cardio would therefore use some protein (Glutamine) which comes from...the muscle where it's stored.

This raises another thing I cringe at. People think muscle gain and muscle loss is a physical gain of flesh.

When someone says they put on 2kg of muscle in 2 weeks they invariably think they've added 2kg of meat to their body. They haven't quite done that it's way more fluid than that, hence why they can lose it just as fast....sorry digression over...concentrate Android

I think the logic "we do exercise we should consume more protein" should be just as valid if we throw cardio into the exercise regime as well. It's resistance exercise as well. Might not be as effective as doing 500 lunges at building muscle but the movements of running are still pretty similar.

Since there is muscle breakdown from just "living" then of course there will be substantially more from engaging in cardio.

convinced yet Optimass?

[musclenz]

So the question still remains. When does the body actually switch into muscle protein breakdown. From your observation optimass, it is seen in extreme cases of protein restriction, but how does that or even does that ever occur in normal cardio & resistance training? Android, you make a good point in the body using only macros of protein. It may well be that only certain aminos are synthesised into energy or for repair but are actual muscle cells catabolized in this process?

[Android]

So the question still remains. When does the body actually switch into muscle protein breakdown. From your observation optimass, it is seen in extreme cases of protein restriction, but how does that or even does that ever occur in normal cardio & resistance training? Android, you make a good point in the body using only macros of protein. It may well be that only certain aminos are synthesised into energy or for repair but are actual muscle cells catabolized in this process?

That was my little digression in my last post about muscle tissue and where aminos are stored.

Pulling aminos from the muscle is as close to muscle breakdown as you'll get I think. It won't physically break down the meaty part of your muscle it will just pull the aminos it needs out of the cells...at a macro-level the muscle size drops...? which we can only equate to muscle-loss as we are using "size" as a gauge. But I am certain muscle meat doesn't get broken down.

I think the confusing part of all this is describing muscle breakdown, cardio may not break down physical muscle tissue but muscle tissue breakdown happens over time anyway and requires repalcement. What the cardio will do is take additional aminos from the muscle which if we don't replace will be muscle size loss.

[Optimass]

I cringe at the use of the word protein, it's crass and is a convenient word

yeah but it's easier than trying to explain it in it's entirity.

So if you were to help someone lose weight and recommended cardio etc you wouldn't tell them to increase their protein to ensure they don't lose muscle mass?

of course - I just wouldn't go over 2g per kg of body weight.

People think muscle gain and muscle loss is a physical gain of flesh. When someone says they put on 2kg of muscle in 2 weeks they invariably think they've added 2kg of meat to their body. They haven't quite done that it's way more fluid than that, hence why they can lose it just as fast....sorry digression over...concentrate Android

:clap:

convinced yet Optimass?

You had me at hello :pfft:

When does the body actually switch into muscle protein breakdown. From your observation optimass, it is seen in extreme cases of protein restriction, but how does that or even does that ever occur in normal cardio & resistance training?

not quite - I used the example only to show the extreme of what can happen. I'm more of the belief that this occurs in extreme cases of cardio and resistance training and where a person is unable genetically to cope with the amount of repair through its own nutrition and biofunctional limitations.

Also fully support hormonal implications - Android touched on it in his first post ... right on in my book.

Perhaps my use of the word catabolic is incorrect. I meant "non-anabolic". During the time of cardio you are not going to be in the most ideal anabolic state which I would described as "swimming in nutrients and rested or at least unstressed".

:nod:

(The reverse of which is described symptomatic of long term anorexia).

[musclenz]

Just a bit more info on BCAA's & strenuous exercise. He talks generally about muscle catabolism but does not describe the conditions that cause it or how severe it can be be but makes some good points on why BCAA Supp can be beneficial. I'm thinking I might need to start a more specific targeting of BCAAs after training as often mine can be intense although I would not go as far as describing the sessions as extreme as we have discussed. What do you guys think?

Ref : Mike Hajoway BB.com

In a recent study in the Nutritional Journal of Medicine, muscle breakdown (catabolism) in endurance athletes can be reduced when they supplement their diet with BCAA's. Other studies have also shown that after a strenuous strength-training session, even in well-trained athletes, muscle catabolism is increased for a period of roughly 4-14 hours, after which a phase of muscle-building (anabolism) takes place. If the anabolic phase is greater in scale and duration than the catabolic phase, improvements in muscle strength and size will take place[15.].

So any treatments that could reduce muscle catabolism might prove beneficial. A rapid influx of amino acids into the muscle cells immediately after training will theoretically have this effect by providing an alternative source of amino acids for utilization, thus protecting the precious muscle itself. A rapidly absorbed supplement of amino acids, taken immediately after training, might be extremely beneficial[15.].

For optimum results in supplement form, it is desirable to take your branch chains separately from the other amino groupings if for no other reason than the fact that they totally dominate the race for entry into the body systems. In fact, they account for upward to 90% of the total amino acid uptake in the three hour period following a meal[14].

Keeping in mind that the main component BCAA uptake is elevated blood sugar and insulin "spike"; taking BCAA's with each meal and before and after a workout is ideal. They should also be taken within 30-60 minutes preceding and following an intense workout to assist in muscle regenitive process and create premium anabolic conditions.

Supplementing with BCAA's can result in measurable gains in both strength and muscularity. Taking branch chain amino acid before and during a work out will increase performance and delay fatigue. Since your body can not manufacture BCAA's, they must be supplied through your diet. These amino acids are needed for the maintenance of muscle tissue during physical stress and intense exercise. From the perspective of athletes, BCAA's function as anabolic agents, which allow the body to burn fat and not muscle. Therefore, branch chain amino acids are crucial in your quest for muscle growth.

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/bcaa2.htm