cheating , how bad is it really???

[bigdan1978]

Lol shame on you if you thought it was a moral issue about ho-ing around.

Seriously , at the mo im 115 kg sitting at 13 percent bodyfat, admittidly i am not a bodybuilding competitor, though alot of people i train with or meet seem to think i am a bodybuilder or tell me i should compete.

So here in lays the problem , i train muay thai 2 times a week for 3 hours each training session, and get to the gym 2-3 times a week .

I enjoy a biscuit with a cup of coffee and a few other luxuries every now n then.

I would like to think i could get my bf % under 10 with a bit of will power and harden my physique up a tad.

though i know competing id have to drop under 4 percent, but thats a bridge id cross if i chose to give up fighting.

SO how bad is my cheating really?, do you cheat more than once a week ?

and how detremental is cheating to your training?

laters..

[Loochi]

I consider my cheat meal as red meat subway sammich... (serious) Lol. I don't cheat really, I just refeed and put red meat in me since I don't have it (cutting at the moment) - otherwise.. I cheat 24/7 when I'm bulking :pfft:

Pictures?? If you're 115/13% NOW!! :nod:

[gym junkie]

man i could so go 4 a subway lol. im 6weeks out frm a show so its prity shit from hear on in.. a dob of black sauce is my cheat on my meals atm but it gets alot worse :cry: ive been on the same diet 4 about 25weeks and its workn a treat

[Loochi]

man i could so go 4 a subway lol. im 6weeks out frm a show so its prity shit from hear on in.. a dob of black sauce is my cheat on my meals atm but it gets alot worse :cry: ive been on the same diet 4 about 25weeks and its workn a treat

Damn dude! Nice! 25 weeks! How are you looking?? Did you have to change your diet during those 25 weeks as the week progressed or..?

I got my first show Sept.. lol

[bigdan1978]

man i could so go 4 a subway lol. im 6weeks out frm a show so its prity shit from hear on in.. a dob of black sauce is my cheat on my meals atm but it gets alot worse :cry: ive been on the same diet 4 about 25weeks and its workn a treat

wanna give us a run down of your daily meals , 25 weeks your a hard man

[Android]

Ahh 'cheating' isn't in my vocabulary anymore, neither is 'good form' or 'bad form'. Whatever it takes to fulfill your goal, to take you one step closer to your purpose, is uneventfully 'normal'.

Maybe by 'cheat meal' you mean you cave in and buy BurgerKing or Pizza then, no, I would never do that.

But I might buy BurgerKing or Pizza if I thought I had a big day ahead and felt low on calories, or I can't quite get enough calories just from clean food and feel flat (happens on days I have little appetite)...it's not cheating

[rose]

Ahh 'cheating' isn't in my vocabulary anymore, neither is 'good form' or 'bad form'.

Even if it has consequences later on that impact on your ability to function/enjoy daily life, e.g. RSI, tendonitis or whatever?

Not picking at you, I just wonder. Does your definition of 'bad form' include lifting incorrectly or neglecting supporting mussels, thereby causing an imbalance that might lead to injury, if not now perhaps later? :think:

I think about it, I guess, because a few people I know have these types of injuries, the result of lifting with bad form or not working supporting muscles, and it's something I really want to avoid. Because I want to be able to lift iron when I'm 80.

Whatever it takes to fulfill your goal...

Do you have self-imposed limits, i.e. things you just wouldn't do, even to achieve your goal?

[teamfatboy]

Whatever it takes to fulfill your goal...

Do you have self-imposed limits, i.e. things you just wouldn't do, even to achieve your goal?

Wow, interesting question, Rose....

I suppose my perspective is "It depends how badly you want to hit the goal". But yes, there are things I would not do, to achieve the goal... stealing food, for one. Would I skip payments on the mortgage to buy chicken? Nope...

But would I have fish-and-chips during a 9-week cut? I wouldn't rule it out, but by golly I'd want to have managed it into the plan... pick a high-carb day, adjust the rest of the intake and training... does that make it not a cheat

[Android]

Whatever it takes to fulfill your goal...

Do you have self-imposed limits, i.e. things you just wouldn't do, even to achieve your goal?

Wow, interesting question, Rose....

I suppose my perspective is "It depends how badly you want to hit the goal". But yes, there are things I would not do, to achieve the goal... stealing food, for one. Would I skip payments on the mortgage to buy chicken? Nope...

But would I have fish-and-chips during a 9-week cut? I wouldn't rule it out, but by golly I'd want to have managed it into the plan... pick a high-carb day, adjust the rest of the intake and training... does that make it not a cheat

I like the way you think TFB, if you convince yourself (and rightly so, not sarcastically) that you need a re-carb then sure it's not a cheat at all.

I am a great one for becoming consumed with my goals, I don't cheat. And unfortunately I don't lower carbs to the point that a re-carb is necessary but I may incorporate that from now on :-) haha

[Android]

Ahh 'cheating' isn't in my vocabulary anymore, neither is 'good form' or 'bad form'.

Even if it has consequences later on that impact on your ability to function/enjoy daily life, e.g. RSI, tendonitis or whatever?

Oh yeah, I've never heard that a 150kg barbell laid across your shoulders and squatting until you're exhausted is good for healthy joints, and that's even doing it with good form.

Not picking at you, I just wonder. Does your definition of 'bad form' include lifting incorrectly or neglecting supporting mussels, thereby causing an imbalance that might lead to injury, if not now perhaps later? :think:

The very word incorrectly implies that it's incorrect to do so, so the answer is no as it's a tautology in itself.

If by incorrectly you mean 'not as instructed' or 'not as the exercise was intended' then the answer is yes all the time.

And I have to.

Otherwise I am limiting my progress by the amount of equipment that is laid out in the gym that I attend. That's too limiting imho.

You'll see me do behind the neck lat pulldowns (bad bad apparently) and I'll bounce at the bottom of a high-rep squat session when I'm trying to exhaust my quads. What else, oh I've done deadlifts with a curved spine before as well, lighter weight of course. Hmmm I sometimes swing barbells for curls when I go heavy.... I think that's bad form too.

Whatever it takes to build a muscle a certain way.

I think about it, I guess, because a few people I know have these types of injuries, the result of lifting with bad form or not working supporting muscles, and it's something I really want to avoid. Because I want to be able to lift iron when I'm 80.

people believe bodybuilding is about lifting heavy-as weights. It's just a small part of it and it should be done safely.

Do you read those magazines that say 'always try and increase your weights'? Have you ever thought there's a limit to ever-increasing a weight then?...the limit I think you'll find is defined as 'injury'. Like driving to the conditions of the road, if you injure yourself you were lifting too heavy for the exercise you were performing. If you were performing a compromising exercise or using bad form then you need to use less weight.

Whatever it takes to fulfill your goal...

Do you have self-imposed limits, i.e. things you just wouldn't do, even to achieve your goal?

Yes I always back-off an exercise if it doesn't 'feel right', which may limit my growth and it's a tough one to crack.

Example is bicep curls, if I go really heavy then as I approach muscle exhaustion I notice the bicep where it joins to the inner forearm gets a deep ache that I don't push past. I can push past any other muscle pain but I don't for some reason push this one. In the back of my mind I don't want to rip a bicep, but I don't know if I ignored this deep ache that I would tear it, I just know that I don't want to find out.

This makes pushing the boundaries difficult, everyone has to decide when is enough enough before they find out that it was enough and that more became injurious.

[Gym rat]

There is nothing wrong with a cheat meal once and while unless one is dieting for a show.I would have pizza as cheat meal once every two or three weeks.

[rose]

Oh yeah, I've never heard that a 150kg barbell laid across your shoulders and squatting until you're exhausted is good for healthy joints, and that's even doing it with good form.

Depends who you believe I guess. If your joints are conditioned to lifting and you're an experienced lifter then risk of injury is somewhat mitigated, and you'd likely take other steps to further mitigate the risk, e.g. spotter/rack/etc.

The very word incorrectly implies that it's incorrect to do so, so the answer is no as it's a tautology in itself.

Hmmm, yes.

If by incorrectly you mean 'not as instructed' or 'not as the exercise was intended' then the answer is yes all the time.

'As instructed'... There are some pretty poxy instructors out there, heh. Published material demonstrates/describes exercises differently (and quite significantly in some cases). So no, and no.

Because some exercises have slight variations to target different muscles. Someone might say one variation is incorrect because they aren't aware of or don't understand the variation, and therefore conclude it's not being done 'as intended'.

And I have to. Otherwise I am limiting my progress by the amount of equipment that is laid out in the gym that I attend. That's too limiting imho.

Agreed, so I guess that's not really what I was getting at, because as you say, if your gym doesn't have equipment you need then you have to improvise. I do the same.

You'll see me do behind the neck lat pulldowns (bad bad apparently) and I'll bounce at the bottom of a high-rep squat session when I'm trying to exhaust my quads. What else, oh I've done deadlifts with a curved spine before as well, lighter weight of course. Hmmm I sometimes swing barbells for curls when I go heavy.... I think that's bad form too. Whatever it takes to build a muscle a certain way.

The word that sticks out of that paragraph is sometimes, as in not always.

You're an experienced lifter. So I presume your risk is somewhat less when compared to someone who has never learnt good form and so doesn't know the difference. You know how to lift with 'good form', but at times choose to push the limits for your goal...

people believe bodybuilding is about lifting heavy-as weights. It's just a small part of it and it should be done safely. If you were performing a compromising exercise or using bad form then you need to use less weight.

Yup. Agreed re lifting too heavy for the exercise. But I also know the people I spoke of to be guilty of not working supporting muscles and this is perhaps the crux of it for me, continuously exercising some body parts while purposely neglecting others, to their detriment. I call that bad form.

And I think this is what comes into play when you choose to vary 'good form'. If you have balanced strength, you're less likely to f*ck yourself up doing an exercise 'not as intended'. Yeah? (Generally speaking)

This makes pushing the boundaries difficult, everyone has to decide when is enough enough before they find out that it was enough and that more became injurious.

Good post Android. Thanks for taking the time to reply.

Apologies to the OP for the off-topic posts.

[laurasaur]

I learnt a new word today.

injurious.

[andymac]

Ahh 'cheating' isn't in my vocabulary anymore, neither is 'good form' or 'bad form'.

Even if it has consequences later on that impact on your ability to function/enjoy daily life, e.g. RSI, tendonitis or whatever?

Oh yeah, I've never heard that a 150kg barbell laid across your shoulders and squatting until you're exhausted is good for healthy joints, and that's even doing it with good form.

Not picking at you, I just wonder. Does your definition of 'bad form' include lifting incorrectly or neglecting supporting mussels, thereby causing an imbalance that might lead to injury, if not now perhaps later? :think:

The very word incorrectly implies that it's incorrect to do so, so the answer is no as it's a tautology in itself.

If by incorrectly you mean 'not as instructed' or 'not as the exercise was intended' then the answer is yes all the time.

And I have to.

Otherwise I am limiting my progress by the amount of equipment that is laid out in the gym that I attend. That's too limiting imho.

You'll see me do behind the neck lat pulldowns (bad bad apparently) and I'll bounce at the bottom of a high-rep squat session when I'm trying to exhaust my quads. What else, oh I've done deadlifts with a curved spine before as well, lighter weight of course. Hmmm I sometimes swing barbells for curls when I go heavy.... I think that's bad form too.

Whatever it takes to build a muscle a certain way.

I think about it, I guess, because a few people I know have these types of injuries, the result of lifting with bad form or not working supporting muscles, and it's something I really want to avoid. Because I want to be able to lift iron when I'm 80.

people believe bodybuilding is about lifting heavy-as weights. It's just a small part of it and it should be done safely.

Do you read those magazines that say 'always try and increase your weights'? Have you ever thought there's a limit to ever-increasing a weight then?...the limit I think you'll find is defined as 'injury'. Like driving to the conditions of the road, if you injure yourself you were lifting too heavy for the exercise you were performing. If you were performing a compromising exercise or using bad form then you need to use less weight.

Whatever it takes to fulfill your goal...

Do you have self-imposed limits, i.e. things you just wouldn't do, even to achieve your goal?

Yes I always back-off an exercise if it doesn't 'feel right', which may limit my growth and it's a tough one to crack.

Example is bicep curls, if I go really heavy then as I approach muscle exhaustion I notice the bicep where it joins to the inner forearm gets a deep ache that I don't push past. I can push past any other muscle pain but I don't for some reason push this one. In the back of my mind I don't want to rip a bicep, but I don't know if I ignored this deep ache that I would tear it, I just know that I don't want to find out.

This makes pushing the boundaries difficult, everyone has to decide when is enough enough before they find out that it was enough and that more became injurious.

[bigdan1978]

yeah thanks for hi-jacking the thread guys.

good to know most dont cheat when preparing for a show, probably why you come in sharp, guess i may have to pick my nuts up and show a bit of will power if im gonna get sub 10 percent.

Though in saying that if you were to adhere to the calories in calories out debate , an average muay thai training for me runs for 3 hours , and id say burns around close to 1000 cals, i may be off on this but from what ive read it should be close, i could drop fat pretty well just doing this and cleaning up the eating a touch.

what do you think about that???

and anyone that says fight training isnt one of the toughest forms of conditioning is an eat ass, id sooner do that for my cardio than 60 min walks!!!

[teamfatboy]

Though in saying that if you were to adhere to the calories in calories out debate , an average muay thai training for me runs for 3 hours , and id say burns around close to 1000 cals, i may be off on this but from what ive read it should be close, i could drop fat pretty well just doing this and cleaning up the eating a touch.

I reckon you're underestimating...I don't know precisely what goes into a muay thai training session (drills, that kind of thing?), but some of the 'combat' / MMA type cardio classes I've done will have me going over 800/cals in an hour, never mind three hours.

But, if you're working real hard, you'd potentially be burning muscle too....

Sounds like some clean eating as a matter of habit, not the exception, and you might get some results

[Darwinstef]

...cleaning up the eating a touch...

I am chronic for this, I have a sweet tooth which has taken ages to tame. I would have a 50g Peanut slab and tell myself what harm could 50g do....but as its somewhere around 300 calories, those 300 may be the difference in my body saying I have had enough for the day and storing fat as opposed to the slight deficit/fat loss I may have created.

If your serious about getting trim then you need to be serious about your diet.

Just my 2cents.

[gym junkie]

man i could so go 4 a subway lol. im 6weeks out frm a show so its prity shit from hear on in.. a dob of black sauce is my cheat on my meals atm but it gets alot worse :cry: ive been on the same diet 4 about 25weeks and its workn a treat

Damn dude! Nice! 25 weeks! How are you looking?? Did you have to change your diet during those 25 weeks as the week progressed or..?

I got my first show Sept.. lol

my aim this yr was to bring my body fat down as slow as pos and good has it workd a treat, i started my diet at 96kgs at 13% im now 90kgs at 7%... ive slowly been taking things out ova thez 25weeks such az the size of me meals and the types of carbs, drinks ect.. good luck with your 1st show m8 you looking grate

[gym junkie]

man i could so go 4 a subway lol. im 6weeks out frm a show so its prity shit from hear on in.. a dob of black sauce is my cheat on my meals atm but it gets alot worse :cry: ive been on the same diet 4 about 25weeks and its workn a treat

wanna give us a run down of your daily meals , 25 weeks your a hard man

my daily meals are

8am 1/half cups of dry oats mixd with 2 cups of egg whites

10am 2 cups of brown rice, 300grams of chicken

12am 2 cups of brown rice, 300grams of steak

3pm shake time

5.30pm half a plate of bricoli and 250grams of steak

8pm shake

9.30pm 250grams cottage cheese