22 y/o, never cycled - low results.

[TGD]

Hey guys, I've always had a sneaking suspicion I may have low T levels etc - but never really looked into it given I am 22 years old and have been partly sold into the "your hormones are at their peak" speech.

But low/no sex drive, constant fatigue despite great sleep, limited hair growth, lack of facial hair and more have led me to get some tests done... and they are all really low.

I train 3x week sport/cardio and 1-2 gym sessions per week if I am not too tired (which, as per my symptoms, is limiting!) along with a relatively solid diet that has been critiqued from those in the know in the past.

NEVER cycled AAS or PH, so no reason for me to be 'shut down'.

RESULTS:

Prolactin = 201 ... (50 - 450)

LH = 3.0 ... (2 - 9)

FSH = 1.9 ... (2 - 12)

Oestradiol = <150 ... (0 - 200)

Testosterone = 13.7 ... (11 - 35)

These must be low for a 22 year old - What do these tell me/you?

Obviously I want to be operating at my peak and although these are not staggeringly low, what are my options to increase these?

[tikalosh]

squats.

[OMCV6]

AAS are not always the answer to a young guys problems and at 22 yo you still young.

You need to look closely at your diet

are you eating atlest 4 meals per day with maybe 2 protein shakes between these meals?

Are you eating enough fat and protien at each meal? throw in some hard boiled eggs (3-6 per day), full fat milk (2litres per day) fish oil tablets or cold pressed vegetable oil into your diet

are you getting atleast 8 hrs quality sleep each night?

are you training no more than 3-4 times per week for max 1hr per session?

you should be training each body part every 4-7 days. 7 days would more likely apply to legs as they are a large muscle group and take longer to recover.

Are you training with a a 500ml or better still 1 lite carb drink? this will get your insulin levels up during and after the workoutand give a good anabolic effect? sip it between each set, you will get a better pump and won't get fatigued and shaky

Are you training mod heavy to heavy with basic exercised like squats, bench press, deadlifts, shoulder press? these exercises stimulate the most anabolic hormone levels in your blood stream.

Don't forget that Insulin is a very anabolic hormone, keep you carb intake high both before and after training and get your protein shake into you r body as soon as you get home from the gym.

What I said above is no bullshit, it will work well without AAS, and it will work even better on suitable doses of AAS.

I hope this has helped you

[TGD]

Thanks OMCV6 I appreciate covering off all those points is very important - I realise AAS is not necessarily the answer and I would prefer it not to be, but I am open to all solutions!

As for your suggestions, I guess that's the problem with posting these things up. Its difficult to post enough details to get a response without posting too much and pissing people off.

I guess I should have said although I may not be a pro or a know it all in many aspects, I have been training for a relatively long time now and implement most if not all of the basics. During the periods I have remained injury free I have seen great results over the past 7 years or so on and off. I have never gone above 15% BF, and average a weight of around 92kg at 1.78... currently 12% at 94kg.

Thanks for your comments, but I actually have everything you mentioned covered and have done for years. Well, excluding the high sugar carb drink during workouts... But I assume that given my first point below I am pretty much doing it already.

I utilise my simple carb windows post and where neccesary pre with dexstrose/creatine, consume protein/meals every 3 hours and have had diet critique and seen sports nutritionists within the industry multiple times so have a pretty accurate breakdown of all my macros, mostly compound movements with max 60 minute workouts etc etc...

Based on having everything in order and being at an age where I should be peaking in terms of hormonal levels - I thought where better to get a 'non-doctor' opinion...

Any more feedback?

[musclenz]

Have you discussed your levels with your doctor? He may be prepared to refer you to an Endo to have more tests & eliminate any problems with the hypothalamus & the pituitary. Also it might be appropriate to eliminate the thyroid as being contributing factor.

[bulking]

Insist your doc send you to an endo. Sell him on the im always tired and moody due to the low test. If he wont find a new one.

[TGD]

Thanks Musclenz and Bulking, appreciate your comments.

I havent needed to see a doctor in over 8 years so dont really have a main one. From what I understand its also pretty difficult to find a good doc?? Is it possible to contact an Endo direct?

As for the hypothalamus, pituitary and thyroid are there any further tests I can get done specifically for these?

Or is my best step to get in to see an Endo and look at these 3 along with the other results?

What would an Endo be able to realistically do/perscribe/provide either way?

[musclenz]

Thanks Musclenz and Bulking, appreciate your comments.

I havent needed to see a doctor in over 8 years so dont really have a main one. From what I understand its also pretty difficult to find a good doc?? Is it possible to contact an Endo direct?

As for the hypothalamus, pituitary and thyroid are there any further tests I can get done specifically for these?

Or is my best step to get in to see an Endo and look at these 3 along with the other results?

What would an Endo be able to realistically do/perscribe/provide either way?

TGD, its quite likely you have no problem at all with your endocrine system, but you sound genuinely concerned with your test results & you describe feeling tired & having some libido issues. I think this is enough to take your investigations further. You could check your local directory for an Endocrinologist. You may not need a referral if you go private.

[Pseudonym]

Like the others say, an endocrinologist will be the only person qualified to answer your question with any more certainty than a stab in the dark.

As another dark stab though, have you had your zinc levels tested? Zinc plays an important role in test production, and a lot of guys are zinc deficient.

[TGD]

Thanks guys.

I havent had Zinc levels tested - I may look into this.

I guess getting in to see an Endo is my only option, thanks for the help all.

[OMCV6]

You will need a referral from GP to see any specialist like an Endocrinologist.

look at taking a 1-2 multivitamins per day that have adequate zinc and iodine.

Anyway it is unlikely that any doctor is going to give a young healthy 22yo that comes into his clinic @ 92kg and 12% bodyfat any script for androgens if his teat levels still fall into range.

Have you thought about taking a break from training for maybe 1-2weeks a few times a year (like maybe 1 week off every 2 months or so).

This is often overlooked and can do wonders to blast a lifter past a plateau.

Unfortuntately some young guys get so addicted to training and body building life style that they miss enjoying life around them, and they often fail to listen to their bodies when they need a rest, I see fools overtraining daily in the gym, guys that do 20 sets on a singly bodypart (stupid) and many of these workouts are just wasted.

[TGD]

I will have to take a look at the level of Zinc in my multi - currently taking Adams Multi off bb.com, can anyone recommend anything better?

As for actually getting in to see an Endo - thats my concern as well. At face value and with most tests in the normal range I cant imagine there will be much open arms assistance going on, sounds more like it will be a battle.

Is it possible OTC test boosters could help then retest in a month or so to see how its going?

Best recommendations for OTC products?

[OMCV6]

There are no magical boosters of Test out there that are OTC.

There are lots of magical claims ,made by many supplement companies.

HCG certainly works but it is not OTC and it works beacause it is structurally the same as LH that signals the leydig cells to make more test.

Save your money for protein powder and good food from the supermarket.

If you are that serious and determined about boosting your test levels then it is best done with supplements that actually work...

ie Testosterone ester injections. But these are prescription only and of course like all medecines they have some side effects, so do your homework carefully before you decide to go any further

[SamWelly]

Are you eating enough fat and protien at each meal? throw in some hard boiled eggs (3-6 per day), full fat milk (2litres per day) fish oil tablets or cold pressed vegetable oil into your diet

Why would you recommend milk? - Aside from it being really high in sugar and bad fats... The protein is hardly digestible.

are you training no more than 3-4 times per week for max 1hr per session?

3-4 times - and 1 hour per session will not result in a whole lot of growth IMO - 5 times a week with 1.5 hours intense training works for a LOT of people provided they are well conditioned and diet etc is up to par

[OMCV6]

Milk protein is quite easily digested, atleast when you compare it to other foods like animal flesh incl fish, and eggs.

infact whole milk is probably the closest thing to a complete food that you can can get.

For some people the lactose can be a problem if they have inadequate amounts of the enzyme "Lactase" in the digestive tract,

The lactose is a di-sacharide of glucose and galactose.

Milk fat maybe mosly saturated but it is not as bad as many people think and far too many kids these days just don't drink enough of it these days.

RE: your training of 1.5hrs 5 days a week, yeah you can probably make gains, but you will probably make same of better gains by doing shorter more intense workouts of 1 hr 3-4 days per week...

It is quality and not quantity that count. and training to stimuale appetite and growth can be seen as a game of diminishing returns on your investment of time in the gym.

And remember once you have done 1-2 heavy sets on a compound movement like squats or bench then the job is mostly done as far as that week in the gym for that body part (quads, or chest) goes, as 1-2 heavy intense sets on a such exercises is about all that is needed to stimulate muscle growth. Of course yoy need to warm up with a pyramid of lighter sets before you go heavy, but this is just to reduce risk of injury.

By all means go on training with your hi volume workouts 5 days per week if you want, but remember that all the frilly "shaping type" exercises do very little to recruit max amounts of muscle fibers and signal a growth response, and certainly do not represent good value of gains for the time involved. These sort of movements will never compare with heavy squats for all out muscle size and development.

[musclenz]

Mate, here is an extract from uyour original post -

But low/no sex drive, constant fatigue despite great sleep, limited hair growth, lack of facial hair and more have led me to get some tests done... and they are all really low.

I train 3x week sport/cardio and 1-2 gym sessions per week if I am not too tired (which, as per my symptoms, is limiting!) along with a relatively solid diet that has been critiqued from those in the know in the past.

I could suggest many ways you could "try" to attack your problems by maniplicating your diet, supplements, training or by using OTC or AAS, but I am not going to because there may be an underlying medical condition causing this "constant fatigue & low/no sex drive". I could speculate here along with every other fitness & health guru, but I would again suggest you consult at least with your MD if you have not done so already.

[TGD]

Great - thanks guys.

I guess that's my best option going to see a Doc, I'm in no situation to go stabbing in the dark with AAS when it will likely put things out even more.

Plus, I already spend more than enough on chicken, tuna and protein powder!

As a side option; has any one ever heard of Patients Advocate?

Can anyone recommend a good doc in Auk City?

[SamWelly]

By all means go on training with your hi volume workouts 5 days per week if you want, but remember that all the frilly "shaping type" exercises do very little to recruit max amounts of muscle fibers and signal a growth response, and certainly do not represent good value of gains for the time involved. These sort of movements will never compare with heavy squats for all out muscle size and development.

Frilly shaping type excersizes? Have a read of my journal mate, I hardly f*ck around with 300 sets of bicep curls :roll:

What you are stating goes against what works for the majority of people - unless you are some kind of training jedi I'm not sure I would take the above advise with a grain of salt.

I do agree that heavy weights and low reps are going to recruit more muscle fibers and generate a higher growth hormone response than high reps with girlie weights. Personally I am a big fan of decent rest periods, hence some longer than average training sessions. If you can fit in a whole back workout in under an hour you are not going heavy enough IMO. Recovery from dead lifts and squats are a killer...

If it doesn't work then can you please ask my body why it is growing, and I'm getting stronger week to week. It must be confused...

[OMCV6]

You state the name of the thread "Low results! Help please"

then you say afterwards, that you are getting stronger week to week and making gains,

you feel you got your training and diet in order...

So what is the problem here? why waste other forum members time if you are making good gains with your existing protocols?

[laurasaur]

You state the name of the thread "Low results! Help please"

then you say afterwards, that you are getting stronger week to week and making gains,

you feel you got your training and diet in order...

So what is the problem here? why waste other forum members time if you are making good gains with your existing protocols?

uh I think you may be confused as to who started this thread, it wasn't samwelly...

[TGD]

uh I think you may be confused as to who started this thread, it wasn't samwelly...

I think you may be right there??

Anyway, thanks all - I guess I will try and hunt down a doctor who can hopefully understand my concerns and set me along the right path.

[TGD]

Taken from another thread I started, which has now been added to this: SHBG = From my research I understand this is a complicated little hormone - can be directly and indirectly effected by a whole host of other levels and can fluctuate dramatically.. as a result effecting everything else.

For some one experiencing hormonal mood fluctuations and symptoms of low testosterone (yet nothing alarmingly out of the norm there) would you perceive a result of 20 nmol/L (ref = 13 - 71) to be low enough to be a possible cause?

I realise the relationship with the Thyroid as well, on a related note my T4 result was relatively low also 12.0 pmol/l (ref = 9 - 19).

Given the relation between SHBG, Insulin and Pre/Diabetes it raises concerns for me given one of my symptoms is fatigue and drowsiness between meals regardless of the meal.. though I do stick to a healthy diet.

I have seen a Doc, who ordered these tests for me - but as some of you may well known unless something is blindingly out of the reference range they overlook it - and I dont want to waste another $60 for nothing to go over results and be told they are normal.

[musclenz]

Why did you not add these comments onto your previous posts so everything can be taken & read in context? Did you redo all your tests & if so could you post up your results for all readings. Have yu discussed these with your Doc & what was his findings, if you care to share that.

[TGD]

.

[TGD]

Hey all - here is an UPDATE.

I have seen a Doc, who sent me on my way for full bloods and thats pretty much all they do, then they leave it up to the Nurses to spot anything that is glaringly out of the reference range.. They dont even call you if you have everything within range, it just goes unspoken, you dont see the results - So I requested a copy of all of my results. ...So I am considering rebooking an appt and try to get a ref to an Endo.

Energy levels and fatigue seemed to have got a bit better lately, which is a real catch 22 - on one hand it means I am feeling a bit more energised (although still no real sex drive, or regular morning wood etc etc) BUT, on the other hand, its not a true reflection on whats going on I guess given my blood tests where done during my 'feeling better' stage.

Hormone Bloods of note:

Total Test has has apparently jumped from 13.7 (my original test) to 20.9 .. (10 - 28)

SHBG= 20 .. (13 - 71) - this one concerns me based on my research.

Free Test= 612 .. (250 - 800)

T4= 12.0 .. (9 - 19)

TSH= 2.9 .. (0.4 - 4)

Prolactin up a bit from original @ 231 .. (50 - 450)

Others to note that are concerning:

Globulin= 23 .. (22 - 38)

White Cell Count= 4.01 .. (4.0 - 11)

Neutrophil seg= 2.03 .. (2.2 - 7.5)

and the ONE thing I did get a call about (she wasnt alarmed by anything else) from the nurse that I need to retest: Kidney related, Renal and electrolytes..

Creatinine= 113 .. (60-105)

eGFR= >60 ml/min/1.73m2

No retests on:

LH= 3 .. (2-9)

FSH= 1.9 .. (2-12)

Oestradiol= <150 .. (0 - 200)

Sadly I guess I have to waste another $60 for nothing to go over results and be told they are normal by the Doc, then try and get put through to an Endo/Specialist...

Whats your thoughts?