2 on, 4 off or similar cycle

[lazyeye]

hi, weighing up options here for a first cycle IDEA

stats

34

86kg (10% 6 pack)

4 years solid experience of late...mucked about for years with poor diet

would be first cycle, but...what i would like to discuss is the option of very short cycles and peoples experiences of them?

the reason im thinking shorter is due to bill roberts article on about it

and...people would definatly notice where i work should i gain 10kg in three months

so...higher dosage, faster acting test compound plus dianabol?

2 weeks of maybe 750mg of test a week plus 30-40mg dianabol

2-3 weeks PCT with clomid and nova (more curious about anabolic fesability of the short cycle than the PCT for it at this stage)

[auck_builder]

i dont think anyone would recomend a 2 week test cycle. most compounds would take over 2 weeks to "kick in".

more experienced guys can explain in detail but to knowlage 2 weeks would be WAY to short to get anything from it... most people recomed 8-12 weeks first cycle with some using dbol first 4-6 weeks aswell

also if u are thinking of gear you should put everything into it dont worry if someone notices your putting on weight as that could limit you mentally to not train hard enough or eat enough

just my 5c

[musclenz]

I cant remember what Bill Roberts reasoning was behind this theory. I have heard of it but I think you have to ask, what would you expect to gain from such a short time frame. Is it worth shutting down your HPTA for 2 weeks of "growth". As AB says, most longer esters of Test dont become fully active in the blood until 10 days or more & so you are down to pretty much an oral only cycle if using Dbol which takes a few days to build up in the system as well. The trouble with being a committed Bodybuilder is you get bigger & people notice.

[bulking]

Blast cycles are best left to experienced users.

Four to six weeks would be minimum as gains are harder to keep the shorter time you are on. Test suspension or prop for 6 weeks with tren ace for 4 weeks would be the way to go for a blast(I dont rec u do this) but like I said its not easy to hold the gains compared to 12-20 weeks

If your worried about gaining to much mass just do a lighter cycle of test e. Maybe 12 weeks at 4-500mg/week, eat clean and go for lean gains not fat bastard gains most people tend to go under the guise of 'bulking'.

[OMCV6]

A shorter cycle is probably a good idea for a first cycle, around 6-8 weeks is not unreasonable, and you should make some reasonable gains.

Get your base-line hormone levels measured by medlab before you start...

-Total or free Test

-LH

-FSH

-Oestradiol

-PSA

Get some test, deca (or equipoise) and an oral (d-bol will work good)

250mg but maybe up to 500mg if you not happy with progress of test esters per week as sustanon or long acting cypoinate or enthanthate as IM inj

100mg-200mg of deca or boldenone per week also as IM inj

20-30mg of d-bol (methandrostanalone) oral per day for 1st 4-6 weeks of cycle (divide your dose to twice daily). Orals can be hard on the liver so maybe get your liver function checked 2 weeks into cycle, if bilirubin or liver enzyme levels too high then curb dose or stop orals.

Better to be conservative with lower doses on your 1st cycle

weeks 8-10 taper doses off (stop the test and taper on the deca or boldeneone @100mg per week for 2-3 weeks). The effects of natural testosterone suppression will be less with deca or equipoise than with Test esters. Test esters have quite a profound effect at shutting down your natural Test production so stop them before you stop the primary anabolic injectable (deca or Eq).

if you can get your hands on some anavar (oxandrolone) then this would be ideal to taper on to keep your gains while your Natural test levels are restoring, 10-20mg of anavar/per day in 2 divided doses will have a good anti-catabolic effect and almost no effect on natural test production provided you keep the dose low @10-20mg per day. Anavar is awesome for burn victims at preventing catabolism and works great in children as well because it cannot convert to estrogen (it is estrogen that signals the ends of the bones to close and stop growing). You won't get big on anavar but the drug has a good effect on strength and speed as due to high levels of Phospho-creatine in the muscle cells.

[Mrbig]

weeks 8-10 taper doses off (stop the test and taper on the deca or boldeneone @100mg per week for 2-3 weeks). The effects of natural testosterone suppression will be less with deca or equipoise than with Test esters. Test esters have quite a profound effect at shutting down your natural Test production so stop them before you stop the primary anabolic injectable (deca or Eq).

um correct me if im wrong but isnt deca the most suppressive hormone I dont think tapering with deca is a good idea it shuts you down alot more than test does

[OMCV6]

Sorry but your incorrect, Nandrolone has a weaker effect on the hypo-testicular axis than testosterone mg for mg. But as far as libido goes post cycle nandrolone is quite a weak androgen c.f. Testosterone so yes sex drive will be down in the absence of low endogenous Testosterone levels when tapering on deca, I admit there are better drugs to taper on and I did mention anavar in my last post

Boldeneone, has an even lesser effect on the hypo-testicular axis than nandrolone so it would be a better choice to taper off on boldeneone if at all possible,

There is a clear link between AAS that convert readily to estrogen and suppression of the bodies natural test levels. Testosterones readily convert to estrogen (oestradial) via the enzyme "aromatase", other analogues that aromatize are Oxymethelone aka Anadrol/Anapolon, and Dianabol. All these drugs will have a profound effect on suppression of the bodies Natural test levels.

[Mrbig]

oh how come everywhere else says deca will shut you down harder than test is every1 else wrong even tho they have had first hand experience

[OMCV6]

Read my last post more carefully.

Yes the trem "deca Dick" is quite true, but this is because deca is quite a weak androgen, and infact is more closely related to a progesterone than most other ASS. If you take Dec on a cycle then you also need to take a strong androgen with it in a moderate dose (250mg per week of test esters will be adequate, to maintain libido etc)

Contrast that to Testostrone which is a powerful androgen, even if you bodies natural test levels are completely depressed and your testicles have shrunk to the size of peas than yes, you can still have libido, and yes you can still build muscle provided you keep having Test injection weekly or fortnightly at appropriate doses.

But, what about when you come off the external hormone (exogenous) source? you are going to lose a lot of your gains if you don't taper off on something?

[musclenz]

A shorter cycle is probably a good idea for a first cycle, around 6-8 weeks is not unreasonable, and you should make some reasonable gains.

Get your base-line hormone levels measured by medlab before you start...

-Total or free Test

-LH

-FSH

-Oestradiol

-PSA

Get some test, deca (or equipoise) and an oral (d-bol will work good)

250mg but maybe up to 500mg if you not happy with progress of test esters per week as sustanon or long acting cypoinate or enthanthate as IM inj

100mg-200mg of deca or boldenone per week also as IM inj

20-30mg of d-bol (methandrostanalone) oral per day for 1st 4-6 weeks of cycle (divide your dose to twice daily). Orals can be hard on the liver so maybe get your liver function checked 2 weeks into cycle, if bilirubin or liver enzyme levels too high then curb dose or stop orals.

Better to be conservative with lower doses on your 1st cycle

weeks 8-10 taper doses off (stop the test and taper on the deca or boldeneone @100mg per week for 2-3 weeks). The effects of natural testosterone suppression will be less with deca or equipoise than with Test esters. Test esters have quite a profound effect at shutting down your natural Test production so stop them before you stop the primary anabolic injectable (deca or Eq).

if you can get your hands on some anavar (oxandrolone) then this would be ideal to taper on to keep your gains while your Natural test levels are restoring, 10-20mg of anavar/per day in 2 divided doses will have a good anti-catabolic effect and almost no effect on natural test production provided you keep the dose low @10-20mg per day. Anavar is awesome for burn victims at preventing catabolism and works great in children as well because it cannot convert to estrogen (it is estrogen that signals the ends of the bones to close and stop growing). You won't get big on anavar but the drug has a good effect on strength and speed as due to high levels of Phospho-creatine in the muscle cells.

I believe it has been generally accepted that although Deca is relatively weak in androgen activity it still does bind with the AR & combined with its strong action at the PR (its stronger than progesterone itself) it is reported in many instances to be very suppressive of the HPTA even at low doses of 100-200mg PW. But normally its the progestenic sides of acne, libido, ED, delayed ejacjulation (deca dick) that is of concern with running a 19 Nor. To counter this its best run with a longer ester of Test & often at a dose 200mg higher than the progestin. There is still much debate on how Nandrolone works chemically in the body & whether it indeed contributes to higher levels of prolactin. Its a great anabolic drug & has been around for years as such but it does have an ability to create sides both androgenic & progestenic, & from my experience is not the best choice of drug to be used in a rookie cycle & certainly not one I would taper out on.

[Mrbig]

OMCV6 I know what you are saying but your advice on how to cycle it and the tapering with the deca is quite stupid tbh why taper with an anabolic especially one that is az highly suppressive az deca dont taper at all especially on your first few cycles

but I guess some people dont like having sex

[OMCV6]

Nandrolone has soothing effect on sore joints and towards the end of a cycle where the lifter is pushing large poundages can be quite useful. Yes it is suppressive but this is all dose related,

Obviously you need to take a strong androgen like Test whilst using deca to maintain libido and vigour etc...

But deca still can offer less overall side-effects when used properly on a cycle,

-and it cannot convert to DHT so therefore cannot accelerate hairloss in users susceptible to going bald.

-Nandrolone has no effects on blood clotting

- Nandrolone is not liver toxic

Including a low to moderate dose of nandrolone in ones cycle allows the user to consume lower dosed or test and other hard drugs such as D-Bol and still get the same or better gains than using test by itself.

As I said, in my previous post, if you can get hold of some anavar then you can taper on that as your body is normalising, as low to moderate doses of oxandrolone 10-20mg per day have little effect on the HPTA.

[Mrbig]

true but ive takin anavar at 50mg a day and it did jack besides making me a lil stronger better to taper off with test if you have to but still short cycles are never to good for solid gains

[OMCV6]

Yes, Oxandrolone is not a huge mass builder, but it will allow you to keep most of your gains when you end the cycle.

I have seen too many guys come off a cycle cold turkey and lose a large amount of what they gained when their natural test levels are rock bottom.

It can take 1-2 months to come back to normal after a cycle, cortisol levels will be high and androgen levels very low, not a good sitn for maintaining mucle mass.

[musclenz]

Taper out on Dianabol if you want to make a softer landing.

[Optimass]

Taper out on Dianabol if you want to make a softer landing.

:nod: agreed

IMO Deca is best used mid cycle with a solid base of test. I wouldn't recommend tapering with it. Dbol post cycle with a touch of winnie would be my preference. 12 to 20 weeks total cycle for best results IMO - I fail to see any tangible benefit in short cycling it unless you prefer to intensify the side effects, which occur as a result of dramatic fluctuations in your test levels.

[Pete_S]

My first cycle recomendations would be 12 weeks on AAS. Weeks 1-4 50mgs D-bol ED, Weeks 1-12 Sus 250 (500mg EW), if you can break this up to shoot EOD will get better utilisation of the prop and keep blood levels more stable. Weeks 10-16 Winny Tabs (50mg ED). Run Arimidex at 0.5mg EOD right through cycle from week 1 right through to end of PCT at week 19. HCG blast at week 6 (1500IU's mon/wed/fri) and then again at weeks 13, 14 and 15 (4500IU's per week - 9 total shots). Clomid for 30 days (100mg ED) from day 10 following last jab. Nolva for 45 days (20mg ED) following last jab. This PCT will enable you to keep most of your gains on cycle. The AI run during PCT works very well at estrogen avoidance beyond the AAS cycle itself. You could through Nandrolone in from weeks 1-10 (cut two weeks prior to test) at no more than 400mg EW - my personal preference is to run NPP (prop) over ND but you would need to jab EOD. The key to retaining gains is in the PCT so this is equally (if not more) important than the AAS cycle itself. Hope this helps.

[mr natural]

a test based taper can work really well, 100 mg for 4 weeks then 80, 50, 25, 10 mg each week, results in little muscle loss IMO

[Mrbig]

My first cycle recomendations would be 12 weeks on AAS. Weeks 1-4 50mgs D-bol ED, Weeks 1-12 Sus 250 (500mg EW), if you can break this up to shoot EOD will get better utilisation of the prop and keep blood levels more stable. Weeks 10-16 Winny Tabs (50mg ED). Run Arimidex at 0.5mg EOD right through cycle from week 1 right through to end of PCT at week 19. HCG blast at week 6 (1500IU's mon/wed/fri) and then again at weeks 13, 14 and 15 (4500IU's per week - 9 total shots). Clomid for 30 days (100mg ED) from day 10 following last jab. Nolva for 45 days (20mg ED) following last jab. This PCT will enable you to keep most of your gains on cycle. The AI run during PCT works very well at estrogen avoidance beyond the AAS cycle itself. You could through Nandrolone in from weeks 1-10 (cut two weeks prior to test) at no more than 400mg EW - my personal preference is to run NPP (prop) over ND but you would need to jab EOD. The key to retaining gains is in the PCT so this is equally (if not more) important than the AAS cycle itself. Hope this helps.

are you crazy this is not good for a first cycle to many different steroids so you will have no idea what is doing what or which is causing what side effects best to just to test 500mg for 10weeks to see how the body responds

[AgentOrange]

i agree

[bulking]

Adex during Pct is not a good idea. Exemestane if you must run one is the only smart option.

[mr natural]

are you crazy this is not good for a first cycle to many different steroids so you will have no idea what is doing what or which is causing what side effects best to just to test 500mg for 10weeks to see how the body responds

i also agree gym rat style

[Pete_S]

My first cycle recomendations would be 12 weeks on AAS. Weeks 1-4 50mgs D-bol ED, Weeks 1-12 Sus 250 (500mg EW), if you can break this up to shoot EOD will get better utilisation of the prop and keep blood levels more stable. Weeks 10-16 Winny Tabs (50mg ED). Run Arimidex at 0.5mg EOD right through cycle from week 1 right through to end of PCT at week 19. HCG blast at week 6 (1500IU's mon/wed/fri) and then again at weeks 13, 14 and 15 (4500IU's per week - 9 total shots). Clomid for 30 days (100mg ED) from day 10 following last jab. Nolva for 45 days (20mg ED) following last jab. This PCT will enable you to keep most of your gains on cycle. The AI run during PCT works very well at estrogen avoidance beyond the AAS cycle itself. You could through Nandrolone in from weeks 1-10 (cut two weeks prior to test) at no more than 400mg EW - my personal preference is to run NPP (prop) over ND but you would need to jab EOD. The key to retaining gains is in the PCT so this is equally (if not more) important than the AAS cycle itself. Hope this helps.

are you crazy this is not good for a first cycle to many different steroids so you will have no idea what is doing what or which is causing what side effects best to just to test 500mg for 10weeks to see how the body responds

The main steriod in this cycle is Sus250 at 500mg a week. This would be the most recommended AAS for a first cycle. The d-bols weeks 1-4 are to kick start the cycle as the 2 long esters of Sus won't come into effect until about week 4. This again is not unusually in any cycle involving test. The winny is to hold the gains and not go into high estrogen mode coming off. The rest of the products mentioned are SERMS and AI's. I'm sure you are aware of these - unless you want to waste a cycle and lose 80% of gains made. This is not an advanced cycle at all but a good one to gain and maintain lean bodymass. I don't believe nandrolone is needed for a fist cycle (unlike optimass). This could be held back until cycle two. Then the addition of Tren for further cycles. The most important thing is PCT. So many people scimp on this and this is just ego IMO

[Pete_S]

Adex during Pct is not a good idea. Exemestane if you must run one is the only smart option.

Adex during PCT is a knew thing a few people i know have experimented with and are having very good results with. Are you also saying adex is not usefull during cycle?

[musclenz]

My first cycle recomendations would be 12 weeks on AAS. Weeks 1-4 50mgs D-bol ED, Weeks 1-12 Sus 250 (500mg EW), if you can break this up to shoot EOD will get better utilisation of the prop and keep blood levels more stable. Weeks 10-16 Winny Tabs (50mg ED). Run Arimidex at 0.5mg EOD right through cycle from week 1 right through to end of PCT at week 19. HCG blast at week 6 (1500IU's mon/wed/fri) and then again at weeks 13, 14 and 15 (4500IU's per week - 9 total shots). Clomid for 30 days (100mg ED) from day 10 following last jab. Nolva for 45 days (20mg ED) following last jab. This PCT will enable you to keep most of your gains on cycle. The AI run during PCT works very well at estrogen avoidance beyond the AAS cycle itself. You could through Nandrolone in from weeks 1-10 (cut two weeks prior to test) at no more than 400mg EW - my personal preference is to run NPP (prop) over ND but you would need to jab EOD. The key to retaining gains is in the PCT so this is equally (if not more) important than the AAS cycle itself. Hope this helps.

Where did you get this "first" cycle from & how effective was it in terms of gains? How did you feel at the end of PCT & how much body mass did you loose? Subsequently, what would you recommend for a 2nd cycle?