Bloodwork

[nate225]

I like your optimistic look on things nate I think i'll try some OTC remedies and some heavy lifting and re-test in 6 weeks (for the record i am cutting at the moment)... If no luck i'll try a second 'hardcore' PCT and see if that gets things moving any better.. failing that i guess i'll just accept my results and presume that's the way i am.. Have always been a good gainer natty prior to cycle so will be interesting to see how i go next bulk.

Cutting could impact on your levels? Low fat diet maybe?? The base materials T is constructed by the body are lipids (cholestrol from memory, NZMuscle???).

Try re-doing your levels once you start eating normally again.

I considered going on the gear when I was 19, I had been training for 4 years and like every other noobie I wanted gains fast. I got similar testing done and was low in the range for test (but still well within the norm ranges). Based on my results and the doctors advice I didn't make the jump to the gear, which with the beauty of hindsight was a good choice. During my early years (16-21) I went from 65kg to 92, got pretty strong, and learnt a sh*tload along the way.

I guess what I'm saying is that with levels in the norm, albeit apparently low norm, you can make significant gains through hard work & concientious eating.

Probably best to take a re-test under normal conditions (after your cutting phase has finished), see what your levels are and re-evaluate from there.

At this point if alls not as good as it should be I would talk more with those who know how to deal with these issues (i.e. NZ Muscle, or if you can afford it or have medical cover an endocrinologist.)

Nate

[mr natural]

AO i would recommend another test in a months time,To many varibles to make a total asumption on the state of your endocrine system without more follow up tests. I'm resonably sure the LH and FSH levels vary during the day also. At night these levels will be higher, and lack of sleep can lower these levels as well as free test.

"During sleep, episodic bursts of LH drive testosterone production in men. The frequency and amplitude of these pulses are essential for appropriate testosterone production. There’s generally a 40-minute lag time from when the first burst of LH is secreted to stimulation of testosterone production.7 So, now you understand that during normal sleep there are episodic pulses of LH-stimulating testosterone production, however when sleep is disrupted, the circadian rhythm of testosterone is disrupted as well."

have a read of this

http://www.musculardevelopment.com/cont ... 84/51/1/1/

[musclenz]

RESULTS:

I'll copy them as the appear on the results sheet, i dont really know what i am looking at or what is normal hopefully someone does:

Bracketed area = Referance range

First numbers are actuall results

Prolactin: 174 (50-450) mIU/L

LH : 2.1 (2-9) IU/L

FSH : 1.1* (2 - 12) IU/L

Oestradiol: <150 (0-200) pmol/

Testosterone: 14.0 (11 - 35) nmol/l

:shrug:

Clearly your concerns have proven to be right. It would seem your body has not really kickstarted again at the pituitary. I think you have got 2 possible courses of action. 1. You redo your PCT. 2. You agressively treat your low test/ high estrogen levels with a natural therapy of OTC test boosters, zinc, & tribulus etc

Your PCT could involve using Clomid in an attempt to stimulate LH again & Nolvadex, or a short sharp dose of Hcg over 5 days of 5000iu followed by an AI like Femara @ 1 mg ed for 20 days. I would be inclined to opt for the later as Nolvadex is getting a bit of bad press ATM in BBing circles because of its ability to be catabolic on GH & IGF-1 in the body & its possible carcinogenic actions in body tissue.

Maybe an assumption here NZM about AO's original levels. You talk about his "low test" levels, however being in the 'norm' reference range they maybe as high as they get for AO. Same issue with the "high estrogen" which again is within the reference range ("<150" as shown by AO could be actually at the lower end, unless it is meant to be "150").

Probably a lesson learnt in retrospect by AO that could help those considering gear would be to get a full baseline hormone profile first, so you would know your individual norms.

Likewise issue with LH is hard to assess given it falls at lower end of norm, but could be normal for AO - good luck trying to sort this buddy, as I commented earlier HCG is not even available on script in NZL for those that need it for more legitimate reasons.

The only thing clearly outside the norm is AO's FSH levels, and correct me if my limited endocrinology knowledge is wrong, but the actions of FSH have more to do with sperm production (than production of T by stimulating the Leydig cells aka LH). In saying that I'm not saying don't worry about it - any readings outside the norms need assessing and addressing if you're looking at your health in a holistic manner, rather than purely a BBing focus.

Nate

Yes, sorry AO my quick assessment of your test values may have been a bit presumptious on my part. I guess I have been working with crazy BBers too long. On a closer look it is probable that the estradiol value is less than 150 & that LH & Total Test do fall into the "average" range but at the lower end. FSH as meantioned is a hormone from the pituitary that stimulates sperm production in the testes. Unless there was an obvious fertility issue here I would not be too concerned about that reading as several factors like recent activity or diet ( a hangover ) can influence it. As Nate has pointed out, its probably not easy to make any foundings without a base set of values to work with. Regrettably most of us do not get this work done prior to playing around with the bodies hormones with an AAS cycle. Certainly, there is a considerable variation of Lab results & average ranges, so unless there are some serious number abdomalities, I believe its a wiser move to ere on the side of caution when it comes to treatment. Its unlikely that you would have done any permanent damage to your endocrine system from a cycle of 500mg Test a year ago. This can present though in cases of AAS "abuse". However, now you have some results & in light of your inability to sustain an acceptabler level of growth etc, it might be timely to embark on a quiet treatment program & retest in a couple of months to see if any noticable change comes through. As mentioned there are several ways you can do this in a holistic manner with natural supplements. Then you could also consider some OTC test boosters like Novadex XT or 6OXO Extreme, the later being my favourite. Then there is left the more evassive treatment using Hcg & AI's. Maybe then its best to leave this option untill your next set of tests are produced or you have consulted your GP/Endo.

[musclenz]

Cutting could impact on your levels? Low fat diet maybe?? The base materials T is constructed by the body are lipids (cholestrol from memory, NZMuscle???).

Now Nate you are getting a bit complex for an amateur like me, but I guess this is why good cholestrol (HDL) is essential. I think its about fatty acids stimulating the Leydig Cells to synthesize Test.

I Am not an Endocronologist, I Am a Shaman :grin:

[nate225]

Cutting could impact on your levels? Low fat diet maybe?? The base materials T is constructed by the body are lipids (cholestrol from memory, NZMuscle???).

Now Nate you are getting a bit complex for an amateur like me, but I guess this is why good cholestrol (HDL) is essential. I think its about fatty acids stimulating the Leydig Cells to synthesize Test.

I Am not an Endocronologist, I Am a Shaman :grin:

LOL it seems a lot of BBers are amateur endocrinologists or pharmacists! I think I'll stick to being a geologist and get back to moving heavy rocks!

[musclenz]

Cutting could impact on your levels? Low fat diet maybe?? The base materials T is constructed by the body are lipids (cholestrol from memory, NZMuscle???).

Now Nate you are getting a bit complex for an amateur like me, but I guess this is why good cholestrol (HDL) is essential. I think its about fatty acids stimulating the Leydig Cells to synthesize Test.

I Am not an Endocronologist, I Am a Shaman :grin:

LOL it seems a lot of BBers are amateur endocrinologists or pharmacists! I think I'll stick to being a geologist and get back to moving heavy rocks!

Yeah I guess you will moving a few of those rocks this weekend. Good luck with that & I hope the weather is ok for your show & you get a good number of punters.

[OMCV6]

Agent orange, This is not intended as a personal question, but what is your age?

Test levels decline with age, there is nothing one can really do about this other than HRT.

[AgentOrange]

Agent orange, This is not intended as a personal question, but what is your age?

Test levels decline with age, there is nothing one can really do about this other than HRT.

26 almost 27

[OMCV6]

OK your levels are probably a bit depressed for your age, you might want to think about a visit to visit an doctor who understands the bodies endocrine (hormone) system.

Maybe wait a month or two first before you visit the Doc and try what I said below... Then get some follow up blood tests to see if you have improved

If you do visit your local GP (take along your blood tests) and he is not much help then ask for a referral to an endocrinologist (hormone specialist), he should be able to sort you out with HCG etc.

In the meantime, look at your diet, be aware that low fat diets have been known to suppress test levels. And I am not making this up!

Have plenty of cold pressed flax seed oil (20ml minimum per day), and throw in some full fat milk, or cheese, whole hardboiled eggs, or low to medium fat beef mince into your diet.

Buy a good quality multi-vitamin/mineral pack and take 1-2 tabs a day as dirested on the packet.

Carry on training "sensibly" (avoid overtraining and listen to your body),

make an effort to do compound movements such as squats as these have a good effect on stimulating growth hormone release.

Limit working sets to 1-2 heavy sets per exercise of 6-10 reps. Maybe train 1 day on and 1 day off to help with recovery, and keep your workouts to 60mins or less, but keep the intensity high

use plenty of aminos, whey protein and creatine, and make sure you get plenty of sleep (atleast 8 hrs per night).

This advice should atleast give you something to work on and help you stay in shape.

[AgentOrange]

Ok thanks mate looks like some really good advice...

Will re-test in a month in the mean time i'll take your advice... Will also be including:

ZMA

TRIB

FISH OIL

KRE-ALK

along with what you have sugested... will update of my next results :pray: :pray: :pray:

[OMCV6]

Good on you.

i cannot comment on ZMA and the others as have not read about them or used them, I just stick with the basics.

I use plenty of fish oil caps, get them from pak & save supermarket (I hop I am allowed to post this source!) best value around for $10 for x200 of them 1000mg or 1 gram caps.

I try to have 10-20 a day, maybe pop x5 with each protein drink.

[Varven]

AO don't forget your saturated fats... friend did his bloodwork when cutting too (always natural) and test was a bit low... back on to 2/3 whole eggs a day... test was up a bit.. of course therese heaps of other inputs but from my rudimentary knowledge sat fats stimulate test production.

Any of your more knowledgable folk wanna confirm this for me ??

[OMCV6]

Yes, there low fat diets can suppress Test levels, and yes saturated fats from animal sources are essential in a healthy diet, provided they are consumed in sensible amounts.

See my post above earlier today...

This "Low Fat Diet" thing is a load of bollocks, it is the refined foods, and lack of nutrients that is causing a large % of the health problems.

There is also a clear link between cancer and hydrogenated fats like margerine, and also other processed fats that have "Transfatty acids".

Butter would be a much safer choice c.f. margerine.

You can also get lean (lower your boby fat %) on a diet that is moderate in fat level, provided protein levels and other nutrients are in order.

[TGD]

Hey AgentOrange, how is everything going now?

Its been a month, you were going to try the zma/trib route - any success? Have you had any further bloods?

[BodySculpt]

Just had a quick skim thru the post, sorry if off topic with my question, but AO, are you managing to keep ur muscle mass ok?

[AgentOrange]

quick update:

Ummmm yes im keeping mass dnt think i had to much of a problem looking back now and after researching other posts off ppl with much shitier results than mind before they even touched AAS

[lordan]

when i can feel im shut down zma trib and sleep seems to help me.