Bloodwork

[AgentOrange]

In follow up to my thread "Natural gains post cycle", Im going to have some bloodwork done. I rang Medlab and yes i can pay for some tests (except free testosterone) and have them to sent to me, so im going to have:

Total Testosterone

Follicle Stimulating Hormone (FSH)

Luteinizing Hormone

Estradiol/Estrogen

Prolactin

Will post results here, i think i have covered the most essential tests. If theres anything really important that i may have missed out please pipe up i'll check back for a while and head down to medlab disarvo

cheers

[mr natural]

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[AgentOrange]

...

[mr natural]

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[jakedamuss]

assuming you also wanted to test your cholestrol and liver function what would you ask for?

[Varven]

yup cholestrol liver and thyroid bro.

[quotejoss]

when u get it done cld u post the prices please

[AgentOrange]

when u get it done cld u post the prices please

For you and other that are interested:

Total Test $11

FSH: $9

LH $10

Estradiol/estrogen $16

Prolactin $10

+ $10 admin fee so $66 all up, not bad prob the same almost as seeing most Dr's. Results posted back to me in 3 days..

[mr natural]

whats the point off all these tests when you don't have any balls anyway. 8)

[AgentOrange]

whats the point off all these tests when you don't have any balls anyway. 8)

Mr Natural, you are one intellectual 32/33 year old man.

[decade]

were ur results normal?

[AgentOrange]

should get them back tomorrow brother... we'll post em up, will need some more experienced guys to interpret them..

[AgentOrange]

RESULTS:

I'll copy them as the appear on the results sheet, i dont really know what i am looking at or what is normal hopefully someone does:

Ref Range Units

Prolactin: 174 (50-450) mIU/L

LH : 2.1 (2-9) IU/L

FSH : 1.1* (2 - 12) IU/L

Oestradiol: <150 (0-200) pmol/l

Testosterone: 14.0 (11 - 35) nmol/l

:shrug:

[AgentOrange]

RESULTS:

I'll copy them as the appear on the results sheet, i dont really know what i am looking at or what is normal hopefully someone does:

Bracketed area = Referance range

First numbers are actuall results

Prolactin: 174 (50-450) mIU/L

LH : 2.1 (2-9) IU/L

FSH : 1.1* (2 - 12) IU/L

Oestradiol: <150 (0-200) pmol/l

Testosterone: 14.0 (11 - 35) nmol/l

:shrug:

[musclenz]

RESULTS:

I'll copy them as the appear on the results sheet, i dont really know what i am looking at or what is normal hopefully someone does:

Bracketed area = Referance range

First numbers are actuall results

Prolactin: 174 (50-450) mIU/L

LH : 2.1 (2-9) IU/L

FSH : 1.1* (2 - 12) IU/L

Oestradiol: <150 (0-200) pmol/

Testosterone: 14.0 (11 - 35) nmol/l

:shrug:

Clearly your concerns have proven to be right. It would seem your body has not really kickstarted again at the pituitary. I think you have got 2 possible courses of action. 1. You redo your PCT. 2. You agressively treat your low test/ high estrogen levels with a natural therapy of OTC test boosters, zinc, & tribulus etc

Your PCT could involve using Clomid in an attempt to stimulate LH again & Nolvadex, or a short sharp dose of Hcg over 5 days of 5000iu followed by an AI like Femara @ 1 mg ed for 20 days. I would be inclined to opt for the later as Nolvadex is getting a bit of bad press ATM in BBing circles because of its ability to be catabolic on GH & IGF-1 in the body & its possible carcinogenic actions in body tissue.

[jakedamuss]

im no expert on the subject but by looking at that you have low testosterone and low fsh and low lh which i would say would most likely be because of not running a good pct. i would say either look at running some hcg with a SERM (big debate over which is best ill be using fareston inn my next cycle) and possibly also run something like toco 8 and sustain alpha by primodial performance. either someone on these forums might be able to help you out with the best way to run them or anabolicminds/elitefitness is a good place

I would say something like 1000iu HCG injected EOD for 10days

100mg Clomid everyday for 2weeks

50mg clomid everyday for two weeks

sustain alpha run alongside for boosting lh

and toco 8 to boost testicular lh sensitivity

Or you could go see an endocrinologist i would imagine they would do something similar iim not sure how much it would cost

or you could just jump on another cycle and run HCG throughout then run a killer PCT

hope that helps pm me if u need anything else

[ExpensiveUrine]

Why didn't you get free testosterone done?

[AgentOrange]

Why didn't you get free testosterone done?

due to price..

[AgentOrange]

Thanks musclenz and jakethemuss

Well if i wasn't to concerned before NOW I AM! Jake you say i have low test but my reading is 14 is that not normal? As the "reference range" is between (11 - 35) so 14 is clearly within that range.

I first will try to attempt to correct this naturally can you recommend a good cycle of zinc, tribulus(brand) and time frame? Then i will get retested and see if there's been improvement.

LH is also in the "ref range" why do you guys think this is low? FSH is clearly below the ref range however :? and same with oestradiol its within that range.... or does that range not mean anything??

these kind of results are not indications of some sort of irreversible damage i have done to my endocrine system are they? after all the cycle was nearly a year ago

:oops:

[nate225]

RESULTS:

I'll copy them as the appear on the results sheet, i dont really know what i am looking at or what is normal hopefully someone does:

Bracketed area = Referance range

First numbers are actuall results

Prolactin: 174 (50-450) mIU/L

LH : 2.1 (2-9) IU/L

FSH : 1.1* (2 - 12) IU/L

Oestradiol: <150 (0-200) pmol/

Testosterone: 14.0 (11 - 35) nmol/l

:shrug:

Clearly your concerns have proven to be right. It would seem your body has not really kickstarted again at the pituitary. I think you have got 2 possible courses of action. 1. You redo your PCT. 2. You agressively treat your low test/ high estrogen levels with a natural therapy of OTC test boosters, zinc, & tribulus etc

Your PCT could involve using Clomid in an attempt to stimulate LH again & Nolvadex, or a short sharp dose of Hcg over 5 days of 5000iu followed by an AI like Femara @ 1 mg ed for 20 days. I would be inclined to opt for the later as Nolvadex is getting a bit of bad press ATM in BBing circles because of its ability to be catabolic on GH & IGF-1 in the body & its possible carcinogenic actions in body tissue.

Maybe an assumption here NZM about AO's original levels. You talk about his "low test" levels, however being in the 'norm' reference range they maybe as high as they get for AO. Same issue with the "high estrogen" which again is within the reference range ("<150" as shown by AO could be actually at the lower end, unless it is meant to be "150").

Probably a lesson learnt in retrospect by AO that could help those considering gear would be to get a full baseline hormone profile first, so you would know your individual norms.

Likewise issue with LH is hard to assess given it falls at lower end of norm, but could be normal for AO - good luck trying to sort this buddy, as I commented earlier HCG is not even available on script in NZL for those that need it for more legitimate reasons.

The only thing clearly outside the norm is AO's FSH levels, and correct me if my limited endocrinology knowledge is wrong, but the actions of FSH have more to do with sperm production (than production of T by stimulating the Leydig cells aka LH). In saying that I'm not saying don't worry about it - any readings outside the norms need assessing and addressing if you're looking at your health in a holistic manner, rather than purely a BBing focus.

Nate

[jakedamuss]

I agree with nate . without knowing your levels before its hard to comment. however i would say looking at it although you are in range for lh, test and oestradiol you are at the bottom of the range for test and lh and towards the higher end of the range for oestradiol. however if you are feeling fine i would not worry.

Zma could definetly help, im unsure as to how effective it will be. never used tribulus myself but al the studies i have read indicate although you notice a libido increase it doesnt have much impact on test

FSH has to do with production of sperm

If i were u and since you have already spent $60 on the blood test and if you want to get something that works i would look at nutraplanet.com and get a bottle of sustain alpha and toco 8. prven to be effective at raises test lowering estrogen. then wait and have your levels tested again

other than that maybe look at seeing a endocrinologist im pretty certain they can prescribe HCG

but it all comes down to if your body is feeling fine then i would not worry

[nate225]

other than that maybe look at seeing a endocrinologist im pretty certain they can prescribe HCG

HCG is not available in NZL, a friend of mine has a script for this due to wanting children but decreased levels of most of the hormones = zip in the way of swimmers. He cannot access the HCG and is having to look at importing (legitimately) profasi.

but it all comes down to if your body is feeling fine then i would not worry

Not the best advice I've seen Jake. Unless you want to be "feeling fine" about not having children in the future!!!

My humble opinion is if there is a clinically identified issue, assess it, then deal with it in the most appropriate manner. Usually (again IMHO) the most appropriate manner involves professional advice (or as near to this as you can get!) and not hit or miss remedies from supplement companies who do not have stringent quality control requirements.

But at the end of the day it's your call AO, and your own circumstances will dictate the action that best suits you!

Nate

[nate225]

With ref. to ranges, obviously it would be nice to have natural levels at the higher end of the scale (probably partially what is commonly referred to as genetically gifted along with muscle belly lengths, body fat distribution etc) but other factors need to be considered here. Someone with lower levels may actually have better uptake (more available receptors in the right places, greater proportions of free test etc) - NZMuscle may be able to comment more on this. Just to throw another spanner in the works levels fluctuate throughout the day, therefore your lower level c/f the ref norms may be higher in the range at another time in the day.

I think I'd only be concerned with levels if they were below the norm reference range or consistently at the lower end and I wasn't making progress with my training.

Nate

[Jasthace]

Your testosterone seems to be corresponding with boarder line low LH FSH,which really suggests that testi function is ok ,you just need to stimulate a bit more LH and FSH to get the test. levels up.

A cycle of SERMs might help to up regulate production esp. since the pituitary is already functioning these hormones,just block the E receptors and production should step up.

[AgentOrange]

Just to throw another spanner in the works levels fluctuate throughout the day, therefore your lower level c/f the ref norms may be higher in the range at another time in the day.

Interesting point you make i had actually had a 3 or 4 red wines the night before the test and did wake up feeling a little hungover (don't drink much) maybe that lowered my result...

I think I'd only be concerned with levels if they were below the norm reference range or consistently at the lower end and I wasn't making progress with my training.

I like your optimistic look on things nate I think i'll try some OTC remedies and some heavy lifting and re-test in 6 weeks (for the record i am cutting at the moment)... If no luck i'll try a second 'hardcore' PCT and see if that gets things moving any better.. failing that i guess i'll just accept my results and presume that's the way i am.. Have always been a good gainer natty prior to cycle so will be interesting to see how i go next bulk.