nzfbb testing

[michaelk]

I hardly think there has been any "strict adhearance" of late Mike, and as such the playing field is looking pretty even from where I'm sitting.

So you think that by NOT strictly adhering to the policy the playing field is even, so does that mean that if we did adhere to the policy strictly it would be an uneven playing field...soounds llike we have a concensus.

[nate225]

I hardly think there has been any "strict adhearance" of late Mike, and as such the playing field is looking pretty even from where I'm sitting.

So you think that by NOT strictly adhering to the policy the playing field is even, so does that mean that if we did adhere to the policy strictly it would be an uneven playing field...soounds llike we have a concensus.

My comments were with reference to your earlier statements that inferred NZ BBers were up against it because we adhered to a solid testing programme. Because there has been no strict programme of late it is hard to claim an uneven playing field exists currently.

With reference to the past (just read the Sports Tribunal banned / suspended list and note the disproportional number of BBers) you could well argue an uneven playing field existed if overseas organisations were not testing.

Either way you want to view it, it supports the need to split the testing to allow drugfree (or as close to the ideal as possible) competition within NZ, as well as a 'free pass class' for those wanting to go on to untested divisions (aka IFBB Pro).

This concept is nothing new as it was tabled to the committee over 15 years ago. Maybe the new bodies fronting the Fed may take this idea on board now instead of ducking the issue and avoiding making a committment either way. Mike D should be able to talk through the issues associated with the committee given the path he had to tread to get where he is today.

Nate

[michaelk]

I hardly think there has been any "strict adhearance" of late Mike, and as such the playing field is looking pretty even from where I'm sitting.

So you think that by NOT strictly adhering to the policy the playing field is even, so does that mean that if we did adhere to the policy strictly it would be an uneven playing field...soounds llike we have a concensus

My comments were with reference to your earlier statements that inferred NZ BBers were up against it because we adhered to a solid testing programme. Because there has been no strict programme of late it is hard to claim an uneven playing field exists currently.

Either way you want to view it, it supports the need to split the testing to allow drugfree (or as close to the ideal as possible) competition within NZ, as well as a 'free pass class' for those wanting to go on to untested divisions (aka IFBB Pro).

Nate

I meant that the playing field was uneven when we were testing and the overseas countries were not.

I have been talking about an Elite non tested class for a few years myself and would be very supportive of it, I'd like to see a defined policy for qualification into the class though, not just rock on up and pick and choose.

But to qualify through the Open mens- Or an Overall Win at the nationals if your Novice or Junior- although that would qualify you for Pro anyway & initially special invite for selected NABBA competitors for the first couple of years- should keep Mr Natural happy

Also if you compete in that category, there would need to be a standdown before competing in a Non elite category.

[mr natural]

Why even bother with testing? They don't test pro's so why bother with the amature's?

If theres ever going to be effective testing they need to test EVERYONE!

If that be the case then like MK hints at have a tested and non tested grade prehaps? users in this class, non users in this one. Although,god damn, nzfbb has a million and one classes already!

I guess shit rolls down hill and nzfbb has to adbide by what the ifbb dictates.

That being the case the non tested elite shows might be the best option. Perhaps even a couple of events a year to make it worth while for the athletes.

P.S don't take this as any sort of agreement MK, agreed?

[Android]

Why even bother with testing? They don't test pro's so why bother with the amature's?

Common-sense! .... Moderators ban him! :shock:

[nate225]

I have been talking about an Elite non tested class for a few years myself and would be very supportive of it, I'd like to see a defined policy for qualification into the class though, not just rock on up and pick and choose.

But to qualify through the Open mens- Or an Overall Win at the nationals if your Novice or Junior- although that would qualify you for Pro anyway & initially special invite for selected NABBA competitors for the first couple of years- should keep Mr Natural happy

Also if you compete in that category, there would need to be a standdown before competing in a Non elite category.

Now we're talking Mike, hard to argue if this had a sound framework around it that anyone would be disadvantaged.

[nate225]

Why even bother with testing? They don't test pro's so why bother with the amature's?

If theres ever going to be effective testing they need to test EVERYONE!

Huh? Wait I'll just hit the crack pipe and try and understand your point! :pfft:

Pro's don't compete against amatuers MN so no issue there.

If that be the case then like MK hints at have a tested and non tested grade prehaps? users in this class, non users in this one. Although,god damn, nzfbb has a million and one classes already!

I guess shit rolls down hill and nzfbb has to adbide by what the ifbb dictates.

That being the case the non tested elite shows might be the best option. Perhaps even a couple of events a year to make it worth while for the athletes.

P.S don't take this as any sort of agreement MK, agreed?

Really we are only talking about one class aren't we? Open Mens - there's no room for under 70kg pro's! Maybe Open Womens, although given the state of disrepair of Womens Professional BBing it's not much incentive to go there?

Elite shows sound good MN.

Nate

[mr natural]

Why even bother with testing? They don't test pro's so why bother with the amatuer's?

If theres ever going to be effective testing they need to test EVERYONE!

Huh? Wait I'll just hit the crack pipe and try and understand your point! :pfft:

Pro's don't compete against amatuers MN so no issue there.

Nate

maybe you should lay of the crack pipe altogether there buddy, its a simple point to grasp

I'm not saying pro's compete against amatuers :pfft: lol

i'm S ...A... Y... I... N.... G....

If the pro divison is not tested, why does the amature level have to be tested? Do you have to wait to look like the big boys naturally at amatuer level and become a pro before you can start using what the big boys are using? where's the logic in that???

[gazza]

some good reading in here guys.

but at the end of the day does it really matter, some use some don't. i've seen guys in the gym that use and look shit and natural guys that look like they are using. just because someones on gear doesn't mean they're going to be biggest and best.

separate classes sounds good but who's to say athletes that are geared up aren't going to take the chance and compete in the tested class for the chance of a title, it's been happening for years from what i'm seeing and reading.but hey i'm still learning alot about the sport.

[nate225]

some good reading in here guys.

but at the end of the day does it really matter, some use some don't. i've seen guys in the gym that use and look shit and natural guys that look like they are using. just because someones on gear doesn't mean they're going to be biggest and best.

separate classes sounds good but who's to say athletes that are geared up aren't going to take the chance and compete in the tested class for the chance of a title, it's been happening for years from what i'm seeing and reading.but hey i'm still learning alot about the sport.

Good call and there's no reason natural guys couldn't compete in an untested elite class. Damn a 70 kilo Danny Hibbs beat the lot of them last year!

[nate225]

Why even bother with testing? They don't test pro's so why bother with the amatuer's?

If theres ever going to be effective testing they need to test EVERYONE!

Huh? Wait I'll just hit the crack pipe and try and understand your point! :pfft:

Pro's don't compete against amatuers MN so no issue there.

Nate

maybe you should lay of the crack pipe altogether there buddy, its a simple point to grasp

I'm not saying pro's compete against amatuers :pfft: lol

i'm S ...A... Y... I... N.... G....

If the pro divison is not tested, why does the amature level have to be tested? Do you have to wait to look like the big boys naturally at amatuer level and become a pro before you can start using what the big boys are using? where's the logic in that???

I'll type slowly for you MN, as I've already mentioned I support a separate division ("elite" for lack of a name), so you can use to your hearts content as an amatuer. However under this concept you couldn't compete against those choosing to compete in the tested amatuer divisions.

Win : Win really.

Does that logic sit well with you MN?

Nate

[nate225]

Just out of interest where is the feedback from those it actually affects?

MD, MK are IFBB so no impact on them, I'm throwing rocks & tyres around nowdays, and MN is with NABBA (correct me if I'm wrong?).

What do the actual NZFBB competitors think? Or is everyone too low on carbs to give a shit!

I would be interested to hear from those currently competing with the Federation, hopefully some are using other avenues (through local officials maybe) to get heard?

Nate

[mr natural]

Huh? Wait I'll just hit the crack pipe and try and understand your point! :pfft:

Pro's don't compete against amatuers MN so no issue there.

Nate

maybe you should lay of the crack pipe altogether there buddy, its a simple point to grasp

I'm not saying pro's compete against amatuers :pfft: lol

i'm S ...A... Y... I... N.... G....

If the pro divison is not tested, why does the amature level have to be tested? Do you have to wait to look like the big boys naturally at amatuer level and become a pro before you can start using what the big boys are using? where's the logic in that???

I'll type slowly for you MN, as I've already mentioned I support a separate division ("elite" for lack of a name), so you can use to your hearts content as an amatuer. However under this concept you couldn't compete against those choosing to compete in the tested amatuer divisions.

Win : Win really.

Does that logic sit well with you MN?

Nate

now your starting to make some sense, i hear crack withdrawall is a bitch? :pfft:

[nate225]

now your starting to make some sense, i hear crack withdrawall is a bitch? :pfft:

LOL at 108kg at 5'9" I haven't been confused with a crack head for quite some time!

[Android]

Just out of interest where is the feedback from those it actually affects?

MD, MK are IFBB so no impact on them, I'm throwing rocks & tyres around nowdays, and MN is with NABBA (correct me if I'm wrong?).

What do the actual NZFBB competitors think? Or is everyone too low on carbs to give a s**!

I would be interested to hear from those currently competing with the Federation, hopefully some are using other avenues (through local officials maybe) to get heard?

Nate

Feedback? sure...

I just want a show I can turn up to and do my best in.

I don't care if someone beats me I am doing my best today with what I have.

Ok I do care but not such that I would be upset if someone on roids beat me, if I was taking roids and a natural beat me also, who cares that's too narrow minded for me. This is a journey, it's a process that doesn't yet have an end and is merely interrupted with occassional displays on stage to see how one goes against others on the same journey. (if it wasn't I'd just stand in front of a judge in his own home and drop my pants for comments)

If later in my bodybuilding career I want to get bigger to go Pro I don't want to have to hide my use of steroids.

I don't want to have to lie to other people or tell mis-truths or inuendos to disguise the use.

I don't want to worry that I might get caught and banned for taking something which allows me to sculpt a better body (not run faster) but present a better body on stage (which by the way is the purpose of this sport..and how is BB a sport again...?).

I don't care about lifting heavier or training harder or whatever roids do for you, I care about my appearance and posing on stage on the night.

That's my feedback, NABBA was a pleasure to compete in last year no-body cared about anyone else except how they looked on the night.

And we have the INBA so I don't see any compelling reason above why NZFBB should care except to honour International guidelines and then I see every reason to care. If they stood on their own though I'd suggest no testing at all.

[mr natural]

That's my feedback, NABBA was a pleasure to compete in last year no-body cared about anyone else except how they looked on the night.

.

amen brother!

[gazza]

well said android. i want to compete, i haven't used (ever) and want to see how far i can take my physique naturally. if i miss out on a place cos some geared up monster beats me so be it, as long as i can look at myself in the mirror on the night(and afterwards) and say that i looked the best i could then all good in my books. doesn't mean i wouldn't be gutted after all the hard work and sacrifice though.

[Big_J]

I agree, if i lose to a user then i wasnt good enough, if i am a gear user and beat the rest.. well there not good enough. The sport is tough and its physically and mentally demanding no matter what supplements you take!

I prefer to use the nzfbb as i feel there is more recognition to be gained in this federation and more chance of growing in the sport as opposed to nabba.

I reackon if you have a problem with users and them entering in tested feds.. well then juice up or f*ck up :pfft:

[michaelk]

I prefer to use the nzfbb as i feel there is more recognition to be gained in this federation and more chance of growing in the sport as opposed to nabba.

Amen brother

Hey Mr Natural, for reference, exactly how many NZFBB shows have you entered.

And Android, do you think that anyone cared anything other than what you looked like onstage last year when you won, OR are you implying you only won because you also sponsored the show? :wink:

I can't say I ever won a show I shouldn't have, we all think we have lost ones that we shouldn't have (in both feds).

I can give direct examples of wives of competitors judging their spouses class in NABBA and them winning VERY shonky decisions that were roundly booed on the night.

Thats NABBA's choice on how they run their shows and I really don't care or have a right to comment, other than to say that no federation does things perfect or the exact way you, I or anyone else would like to see it done, but don't think that things are perfect on EITHER side of the fence.

People in glass gyms shouldn't throw Dumbells!

[nate225]

I agree, if i lose to a user then i wasnt good enough, if i am a gear user and beat the rest.. well there not good enough. The sport is tough and its physically and mentally demanding no matter what supplements you take!

I prefer to use the nzfbb as i feel there is more recognition to be gained in this federation and more chance of growing in the sport as opposed to nabba.

I reackon if you have a problem with users and them entering in tested feds.. well then juice up or f*ck up :pfft:

Pretty naive comments Big J.

Some have taken your suggested approach and competed in NZFBB and have tested positive, and found out the hard way that there are greater ramifications than a two year ban from the sport. Having your name published as a "steroid cheat" can have huge implications. Possibly doesn't matter if you're delivering pamphlets for a living Big J :pfft: but for those with real jobs and businesses to run the fall out can be massive!

I remember one guy (no names!) who was all set to go to the Worlds and had to tell everyone he had food poisoning and so couldn't go. The reality was he had blown a test and had some damage control to do as he was a prominent business owner.

To me it seems pretty obvious that tested competitions aren't the best place for "users" regardless of any moral stance on the issue. Hence the commonsense approach to testing is to provide two pathways for BBers to compete under, one providing a drug tested environment & one not testing.

If you are "natural" and want to foot it with those in the untested comp there is no problem -but if you "use" and try to compete against the "naturals" in the tested classes you deserve to be hung out to dry! :nod:

Nate

[rigger]

Hey nate225. It's not as clear as that. eg testing for the naturals and no testing for the others. Natural athletes still return positive testsfor a variety of silly things. It has happened a number of times and that is why the WADA testing plus a couple of other reasons ( lack of promised funding ) was chucked out. Yes lifetime drug free people ended up with positives. Middleaged women in their first year of competing who were trying to get back into shape and others who took supplements that at the time were not banned and while their test was sitting in the refridgerator ( for months ) awaiting testing were put on the banned list.

Thats why it was chucked out. I know I was at the meeting.

[mr natural]

MK, as you well know i don't compete in nzfbb but i might soon due to the no testing policies, that says anything goes. :pfft:

As far as recognition goes,thats really only afforded to the top guys with welder contracts, big money sponsership, magazine shoots and doing the big shows.

I think alot of NZFBB competiers are pipe dreaming thinking when they go pro soon the are gonna win the next Mr O shortly there after.

yourself as a pro can relate you suddenly become a small fish in a big pond. Yes you can stand next to the top pro's on a stage which is great but they are the ones getting the recognition, everyone else is just a minor foot note in a sport that pretty small and generally limited to body builders anyway.

Heck the prestigious Pro Card looks like something a five year old designed and wacked through their home laminator :wink:

awwww i feel like i just told you santa's not real :pfft:

amen brother!!! lol

yes i agree NABBA has their issues also

[nate225]

Hey nate225. It's not as clear as that. eg testing for the naturals and no testing for the others. Natural athletes still return positive testsfor a variety of silly things. It has happened a number of times and that is why the WADA testing plus a couple of other reasons ( lack of promised funding ) was chucked out. Yes lifetime drug free people ended up with positives. Middleaged women in their first year of competing who were trying to get back into shape and others who took supplements that at the time were not banned and while their test was sitting in the refridgerator ( for months ) awaiting testing were put on the banned list.

Thats why it was chucked out. I know I was at the meeting.

If you operated a proper policy & WADA compliant testing I very much doubt you had any false positives. Yes you will have issues around athletes taking things they were unaware of (e.g. Tainted supplements like Pan Pharmaceuticals saga), but the responsibility lies with the athlete.

With regards to who got banned and who didn't, thats up to NZFBB (and / or NZ Sport Tribunal if applicable in appeal circumstances). Samples sitting in fridges for months sounds a bit odd Rigger - surely not in an IOC accredited Lab?

Again I have no firsthand knowledge of funding issues (although Mike K commented earlier) although this sounds like an issue for NZFBB and SPARC to sort out?

I find it very hard to understand that people associated with an organisation like NZFBB (lets face it, NZFBB is minute in the scheme of international sports organisations) can argue that the so-called "gold standard" of testing, which has international recognition, somehow doesn't fit their sport; but they are committed to drug free competition.

From the NZFBB website the secretary comments "All NZFBB events are DRUG FREE. As a part of registration all competitors give a declaration that they are drug free and will comply with any requests from a Drug Testing Official".

Probably time everyone stopped pushing their own agendas, of which I can see two main trends:

1) I'm on gear but can't cut it in untested competitions so I'll swindle some 17 year old natural for the under 35 kilo novice class

2) I'm clean so everyone else should be, if they wanna go Pro they should have to win the Nationals clean

A third trend that appears in my earlier comments (repeatedly!), and those of MK, MN etc recognises there can be no one tier approach to suit those that want to even the playing field for athletes (regardless of status). A two tier programme must exist - one tested (and my preference is for the highest standard of testing) and one untested, with solid criteria around each to avoid a rout of the system.

Nate

[rigger]

You believe what you want to believe nate225. That particular athlete who had a positive had thier sample sit for quite sometime in the WADA approved lab in Australia before it got tested, while the banned list was added to. Also there were a number of issues regarding ladies who were tested who were clearly not on anything. The WADA drug testing procedures and banned list are far from perfect.

Other people will back this up. Not sure which category you fit me into as I regard myself not to be in either. Things are never black and white, only shades of grey.

[nate225]

You believe what you want to believe nate225. That particular athlete who had a positive had thier sample sit for quite sometime in the WADA approved lab in Australia before it got tested, while the banned list was added to. Also there were a number of issues regarding ladies who were tested who were clearly not on anything. The WADA drug testing procedures and banned list are far from perfect.

Other people will back this up. Not sure which category you fit me into as I regard myself not to be in either. Things are never black and white, only shades of grey.

Feel free to show actual examples with evidence to support these claims Rigger - I'm a science grad so tend not to buy into anecdotal heresay.

What would you change in regards to the WADA procedures Rigger, to make them closer to your ideal situation? Interested to hear? Theraputic Use Exemption could be reviewed in my opinion, as some non-performance enhancing compounds e.g. corticosteroid hayfever shots, are inelligible for TUE's - madness!

Don't get me wrong I am far from suggesting WADA is perfect, I was under NZFBB for a while when they had a current testing programme and under a fairly solid programme with NZPF. In both cases I saw issues that in a perfect world could've been handled better.

I also strongly disagree with some of the athlete whereabouts requirements being required by WADA - one of our potential Olympic competitors found out the hard way how strict (and in my humble opinion oppressive) this can be (there's a lot of commentary from high profile athletes on this at the moment - Google it if it's of interest).

On top of that the lack of athletes rights with regards to appealing decisions in a little concerning as there is no true judicial approach to this. I believe the ex-WADA President Dick Pound (no shit that's his name, he's no porn star either!) stated something along the lines of to have a full judicial process would interfere with WADA's ability to combat doping.

Anyway thats my 10 cents on the issue, I'm off to lift heavy stuff!

Nate