2009 NZFBB NZ National Champs

[musclenz]

Two points to that...

If she was clearly too muscular for figure, why did she win her division and the overall figure title at the Wellington Show a few weeks prior? That would be a green light IMO.

Secondly, surely she would not be in the same ball park as the bigger physique girls - Kaye, Michelle etc, she would have been too small to worry them I think.

To be fair to Neralee, she was originally a physique competitor, has represented NZ at the IFBB Worlds in Body Fitness and has most recently competed in Figure. She has the ability to transform her look, and she has had recommendations from a couple of NZFBB judges to consider a return to physique (based on the physique she presented at the Wellington Champs).

As for why she won her class and the Overall title at the Wellington Champs? The key is not to look solely at Neralee, but in particular to look at the other competitors. An excellent explanation given to me by a couple of judges is that they have an ideal look for an overall winner and they select the competitor who they consider to be closest to that ideal. Therefore, in the case of the Wellington Champs overall figure line-up, the judges (or at least the majority of them) considered Neralee to be nearer to that ideal Figure look than the next best competitor.

Well Terry, then I cannot see why you did not mark her down because of her muscularity at the Wn Comp. Why would you put someone through to National level if they did not meet the criteria for figure at a regional level. Just no consistency here. Regardless of how the other competitors looked she should have been placed according to the IFBB criteria as a Figure Competitor.

[Ol Skool]

Interesting points gentlemen, I still see a bit of inconsistency here and still believe that the 'message' should have been given at the regional level.

IMO Neralie has a good look for figure...a nice, aesthetic, feminine figure with a good level of muscle across a well proportioned frame. That's why I liked Sanjeev’s physique as well - I guess I'm a big shape and structure fan.

I do see your point about being too muscular though, you guys are the judges and I'm not I suppose there will always be a degree of subjectivity in the figure ranks.

One other thought here, and I hate to play devil’s advocate, would the fact that Neralie was competing for the 'enemy' in an 'enemy' country the very next day have any bearing on the judges decision??

[MasterTel]

Well Terry, then I cannot see why you did not mark her down because of her muscularity at the Wn Comp. Why would you put someone through to National level if they did not meet the criteria for figure at a regional level. Just no consistency here. Regardless of how the other competitors looked she should have been placed according to the IFBB criteria as a Figure Competitor.

I'm not a judge, musclenz - I only organised the event, so I can only convey what was mentioned to me by a couple of the judges.

Their point still stands - they may well have "marked her (Neralee) down" for her muscularity, but they obviously marked the others down more for other reasons or 'faults'. The key thing to note here is not just to look at the winner (a similar situation occurred with Sesa Tomuli at the Auckland Champs i.e. perhaps more muscular that the "ideal") but to look at the next best competitors. The judges have to pick a winner, even if that person is perhaps not the ideal look for that class - but they are the best of the lineup presented to the judges. The fact that both Neralee and Sesa did not win their respective classes at Nationals goes to show that at least one other lady in each lineup (or two in Neralee's class) was considered to be nearest to the "ideal".

[MasterTel]

One other thought here, and I hate to play devil’s advocate, would the fact that Neralie was competing for the 'enemy' in an 'enemy' country the very next day have any bearing on the judges decision??

Interesting thought, Ol Skool, and I know you are not making an accusation, but I doubt the judges even knew about Neralee's plan to compete in Aussie the next day. I didn't know until I saw mention of her win on the gofigure site, and I don't know anyone else that had an inkling of it. Even if any of the judges did know I doubt very much that this would have influenced their scores. This sort of suggestion comes up quite often (i.e. judges being accused of favouring or penalising a competitor for reasons other than what they see on stage), and I don't think our judges are given the credit they deserve for remaining impartial and judging purely on what they see. Any undue bias either way by one judge is negated by removing the high and low scores for each competitor, so unless several judges are unduly biased, then in won't have any impact on the final result.

[gym junkie]

ppl want to no how sum ppl beat others and most of us think huh how did they beat that person.. easy nzfbb is al politics its who you no. look at the pics, sum of the girls wer average that placed 1st 2nd or werever comperd to sum girls that got 3rd and should have been 1st... jump the ditch i say and dont time waste

[michaelk]

Or take the perfectly unreasonable step of actually going to a show to see first hand on what your commenting.

Pictures are a fallable way of judging, having seen the show in person- I happily agreed with all decisions.

Nothing in it for me, but at least I was there.

Politics is usually what people claim when they don't agree, reality in both feds is simply the judges have a different opionion.

I noticed a lot of "politically advantaged :roll: " competitors not win myself.

[Pseudonym]

Just on the photos issue, you've got to remember that what you see is a snapshot at a certain split second. It's nearly impossible to take a photo with every competitor looking their best. I now have the camera set to take 3 photos in quick succession for every shot, simply because it gives me more to choose from. Even then, there's always one person who hasn't struck the pose fully, or finished early, or is twisting slightly...

What I'm saying in a long-winded way is: don't think you can make an accurate judgement by looking at the photos.

[musclenz]

Well Terry, then I cannot see why you did not mark her down because of her muscularity at the Wn Comp. Why would you put someone through to National level if they did not meet the criteria for figure at a regional level. Just no consistency here. Regardless of how the other competitors looked she should have been placed according to the IFBB criteria as a Figure Competitor.

I'm not a judge, musclenz - I only organised the event, so I can only convey what was mentioned to me by a couple of the judges.

Their point still stands - they may well have "marked her (Neralee) down" for her muscularity, but they obviously marked the others down more for other reasons or 'faults'. The key thing to note here is not just to look at the winner (a similar situation occurred with Sesa Tomuli at the Auckland Champs i.e. perhaps more muscular that the "ideal") but to look at the next best competitors. The judges have to pick a winner, even if that person is perhaps not the ideal look for that class - but they are the best of the lineup presented to the judges. The fact that both Neralee and Sesa did not win their respective classes at Nationals goes to show that at least one other lady in each lineup (or two in Neralee's class) was considered to be nearest to the "ideal".

I know you are not a Judge, Terry, but you are 2IC of NZFBB. I can understand that judging is the sole domain of those on the day, however I would expect you have some input to the selection & control of those judges. I don't want to waste you time on this further as I can see where you are coming from but it does not negate my point that there are inconsistencies that my need to be addressed in the future. I will leave it at that as I know you have got other irregularities to deal with in your administration that I'm sure are more onerous. Thanks for working so hard on here for NZFBB. I know many members appreciate your efforts & comments, myself included.

[MasterTel]

I know you are not a Judge, Terry, but you are 2IC of NZFBB. I can understand that judging is the sole domain of those on the day, however I would expect you have some input to the selection & control of those judges. I don't want to waste you time on this further as I can see where you are coming from but it does not negate my point that there are inconsistencies that my need to be addressed in the future. I will leave it at that as I know you have got other irregularities to deal with in your administration that I'm sure are more onerous. Thanks for working so hard on here for NZFBB. I know many members appreciate your efforts & comments, myself included.

Thanks, musclenz - I appreciate your comments and vote of confidence. The selection and control of our judges is actually the sole responsibility of the Judges Chairman (Brian McFarlane), so we (the Exec) don't have much say in that. And, yes - I am the Vice President, but the only significance of that title is that I may be called upon to step up at any time the President is not able to carry our their duties for any reason. Brian, like me, also has one vote on Exec decisions, just like the other Executive Directors. Brian has a specific role of authority as Judges Chairman, but my role is effectively the same as the other Executives.

[bigmd]

ppl want to no how sum ppl beat others and most of us think huh how did they beat that person.. easy nzfbb is al politics its who you no. look at the pics, sum of the girls wer average that placed 1st 2nd or werever comperd to sum girls that got 3rd and should have been 1st... jump the ditch i say and dont time waste

:roll:

I can assure you there are no politics in the Judging, there may be politics in other areas but the judging is done fairly on what is presented to us on stage.

This yrs nationals were possibly the most consistant and agreed out comes in yrs.

If us judges do such a bad job put your bloody hand up spend 2yrs getting qualified (at your own cost as i did) and then spend 6 weekends of your own time, (not paid) and do the job properly as obviously us current judges have no bloody idea what we are doing!! :wink:

[MasterTel]

Well said, Mike! :clap: I can certainly vouch for the integrity, ability and professionalism of our judges.

gym junkie clearly thinks they are an expert judge by being able to pick placings just from a few photos! :roll:

Here's a thought for all those who regularly have a go at our Judges and Executive - where are you when we ask for nominations for Executive members? And why aren't there a flood of applications coming in for people wanting to be judges? It seems like (as usual) there are plenty of people wanting to criticise others but they can't be bothered to do the hard work themselves!

Sure - there will always be decisions (Exec or judging) that some people don't like or agree with, but you also don't know or understand the huge amount of good work that goes in by our officials year after year. I'm the only member of the current Exec that goes on this site (and I think Mike is the only NZFBB Judge on here), so much of the bickering and bleeting goes unnoticed. I regularly suggest that members who have concerns should contact the NZFBB directly, but some seem to only bother posting their concerns here. I do listen to what people say (one major reason why I am on this site) but it doesn't have much if any impact at Exec meetings coming second-hand from me.

[musclenz]

I know you are not a Judge, Terry, but you are 2IC of NZFBB. I can understand that judging is the sole domain of those on the day, however I would expect you have some input to the selection & control of those judges. I don't want to waste you time on this further as I can see where you are coming from but it does not negate my point that there are inconsistencies that my need to be addressed in the future. I will leave it at that as I know you have got other irregularities to deal with in your administration that I'm sure are more onerous. Thanks for working so hard on here for NZFBB. I know many members appreciate your efforts & comments, myself included.

Thanks, musclenz - I appreciate your comments and vote of confidence. The selection and control of our judges is actually the sole responsibility of the Judges Chairman (Brian McFarlane), so we (the Exec) don't have much say in that. And, yes - I am the Vice President, but the only significance of that title is that I may be called upon to step up at any time the President is not able to carry our their duties for any reason. Brian, like me, also has one vote on Exec decisions, just like the other Executive Directors. Brian has a specific role of authority as Judges Chairman, but my role is effectively the same as the other Executives.

I would suggest you get emotionally prepared for this just in case :pfft:

[Outlaw53]

And, yes - I am the Vice President, but the only significance of that title is that I may be called upon to step up at any time the President is not able to carry our their duties for any reason.

Let's hope this happens sooner than later! :nod:

[nicky]

And, yes - I am the Vice President, but the only significance of that title is that I may be called upon to step up at any time the President is not able to carry our their duties for any reason.

Let's hope this happens sooner than later! :nod:

:nod: :nod: :nod: i agree as well!!!!