2009 NZFBB NZ National Champs

[nate225]

LOL @ Mike! You know I'll always call it as I see it, and as for not appropriate it makes very little difference to me if I offend the overly sensitive :grin: - it won't cost me a place in a line up! (Luckily Strongman's a hell of a lot less subjective than BBing, otherwise I'd place last regularly after offending the judges!).

Anyway I'll stick by my decision to call Lisa over Jo & Kaye, but I'll throw some logic in behind it to at least satisfy MD that I wasn't being contenscious for the sake of it!

Lisa is probably bigger upper body than Carmen Cotter was. No one got near her in her brief appearance on NZL stages. Granted Lisa has not yet developed legs with as much mass or the seperation that Carmen had, but to be fair no other woman in NZL has even got close (nor have most guys, seriously).

Could Jo match Lisa's size? I doubt it. Granted Jo's condition was fantastic the last pics I saw, and without doubt she makes my top 3 in NZL womans BBing in terms of achievement (well above Lisa to date for the record). So I looked at current condition and I called Lisa.

However the reality is the line up between what I see as the CURRENT three best NZL womans BBers is unlikely to happen with Jo & Kaye being in their twylight years (Lisa still young in her early thirties at most? I never dared to ask! :grin: ) and very little it seems to compete for within NZL.

Kaye definately deserved to win the NZFBB show, and a genuine congrats to her for doing so (much more than most including myself could achieve), however to be objective the depth of good female physique competitors is just not here in NZL.

Hopefully that clears up any misconceptions (Mr Debenham :grin: ) that I was stirring for the sake of it!

I liken my call to people stating that Evan Centapani or Kai Greene would win the O, it doesn't show a lack of respect for the seasoned competitors, it's just a valid opinion. Only mines more accurate! :grin:

Go eat some carbs Mike the 12 month off seasons begun! :grin:

Outlaw - can I judge please....... biggest legs and back wins! Abs what! :pfft:

[kj]

All winners photos plus video of the three overall champions routines are now on http://www.muscleimaging.com

[Outlaw53]

Perhaps you can just judge the CCI men Nate225, your women's judging seems a bit ordinary. (lol).

Hey, you know me, just calling it as I see it.

Fortunately for me my eyes seem to be working better than yours.

[bigmd]

Nate

i wasnt suggesting you were being contenscious. But if big is best i wouldnt have won any shows! and if you check out Jos web site it has video of her winning the masters Worlds and doing so as one of the smaller lighter competitors.

What i was more saying is kaye and Jo have numerious hit the nail squarely on the head when it comes to condition (granted with time and lots of practice). Lisa has to date not yet done that (and with time and experence im sure she will) and competing at the level she is now competing at, will help gain that experence, so in saying that, Lisa MAY hold the POTENTAL to compete and overtake jo or kaye.

IMO there has been some wicked muscle growth and she is very impressive to watch training,(increadably strong) i now look fwd to seeing that growth develop into hard dense muscle which comes with age, and time carrying that sort of mass (remebering that Lisa 3yrs ago was a much light 52ish kg competitor)

So just to realiterate i am definatly not knocking Lisa just saying that Jo and kaye more than likley still hold that muscle maturity trump card over lisa.

As for carmen most of the stuff you have said id agree with, if you remeber (you might not as you were probibly still in bed, you Strong men obviusly need more beauty sleep than us bodybuilders) i use to train reg with DS and Carmen at 6am and at her peak the ratio of carmens Shoulders to waist was sick that is what pushed her out there for that great placing at the Jan Tana (along with her condition obviously)

Its a shame that her career was all done after 1 regional 1 national and 2 professional shows.

[musclenz]

Nate

i wasnt suggesting you were being contenscious. But if big is best i wouldnt have won any shows! and if you check out Jos web site it has video of her winning the masters Worlds and doing so as one of the smaller lighter competitors.

What i was more saying is kaye and Jo have numerious hit the nail squarely on the head when it comes to condition (granted with time and lots of practice). Lisa has to date not yet done that (and with time and experence im sure she will) and competing at the level she is now competing at, will help gain that experence, so in saying that, Lisa MAY hold the POTENTAL to compete and overtake jo or kaye.

IMO there has been some wicked muscle growth and she is very impressive to watch training,(increadably strong) i now look fwd to seeing that growth develop into hard dense muscle which comes with age, and time carrying that sort of mass (remebering that Lisa 3yrs ago was a much light 52ish kg competitor)

So just to realiterate i am definatly not knocking Lisa just saying that Jo and kaye more than likley still hold that muscle maturity trump card over lisa.

As for carmen most of the stuff you have said id agree with, if you remeber (you might not as you were probibly still in bed, you Strong men obviusly need more beauty sleep than us bodybuilders) i use to train reg with DS and Carmen at 6am and at her peak the ratio of carmens Shoulders to waist was sick that is what pushed her out there for that great placing at the Jan Tana (along with her condition obviously)

Its a shame that her career was all done after 1 regional 1 national and 2 professional shows.

I'm not going to get into the comparison debate as I will leave you & Nate to slog that out. What I can say from being a little involved in Lisa's contest prep this year is this - It was never the intention to bring her out in a shredded condition on stage. There has been a gradual peaking of condition from Southport to Sydney & into Southport in England but there has been a deliberate approach to condition where it is not to be sacrificed for mass & muscle size & definition. It was also the intention to produce a total physique package that still strongly favored a feminine physique but perhaps with classic muscularity somewhat in line with Juliette Bergmann.

[bodybyjo]

A little input from one of the girls being compared here, I have come in year after year a small package, with my weight at my first comp just under 52kgs in 1992, to only weighing 58.6 kgs early this year at the Arnold.. I was the smallest and oldest of the middleweights and I placed 3rd this year. 2007 and 2008 I cleaned up the Masters Worlds, and the Arnold Amateur, 16 and 11 competitors from all over the world.

The package I present is for this reason, to stay acceptable for NZ -it could of been very easy for me to gain 3-4 or 5kgs of muscle and still come in condition and remain symmetical andbalanced.. However I have tried to bring NZ female bodybuiding back into vogue by remaining a smaller feminine package and changing the public opinion of the freaky female bodybuilder. I feel I have have succeeded in my attempt to do that ( even as an ancient female) and I have also unexpectently done very well internationally. If I am portrayed as somebody who is too small or "not up there" well that is all good for me.. I have perhaps given hundreds of other female bodybuilders here in NZ and Aussie the guts to do the same and if my contest days are up for whatever reason, I am happy in paving the way.. If other girls wish to do the same and go for the big ones, whether they are big or small, then I am all for them and support them 100% either way and will fight to help them to achieve this either way.. ( I fully support any competitor wishing to go compete internationally and strive to gain them funding or sponsorship in any way)

Carmen Cotter - Ive knowncarmen for years and she is and was amazing, Kaye O'Neill, she was way overdue for a comeback and I have told her that for years, and Lisa - well charge ahead. For whatever reason, female bodybuiding will get better now if the federation get behind the competitors and give them the benefit of the doubt and support them. Kaye Oneill and Michelle Heggie should be sent to the Worlds in Poland without question so the world knows that NZ has it going on.. If the NZFBB does not push this, then female bodybuilding will dry up and die again..

[nate225]

Thanks for wading in Jo, great response and I must say I hold much respect for your acheivements and you doing what you set out to do. Apologies for the age reference Jo, didn't read well in retrospect! :oops:

Mike, we'll agree to disagree on this - or schedule a cage fight LOL :grin:

Great hijack by the way, awesome to see such interest in womans physique here (after IFBB managed to destroy most of the interest with the direction it pushed in). Juliette Bergman - thats a look I could live with at Ms O level! :nod:

[bigmd]

Thanks for wading in Jo, great response and I must say I hold much respect for your acheivements and you doing what you set out to do. Apologies for the age reference Jo, didn't read well in retrospect! :oops:

Mike, we'll agree to disagree on this - or schedule a cage fight LOL :grin:

Great hijack by the way, awesome to see such interest in womans physique here (after IFBB managed to destroy most of the interest with the direction it pushed in). Juliette Bergman - thats a look I could live with at Ms O level! :nod:

LOL you seem to think we are disagreeing completly. we are not we are more disagreeing on time frames..... and the fact i was sticking up my good friend Jo as all good friend should (ur lucky she doesnt give you a good slap for the age comment, maybe you should cage fight with her after that sort of talk :wink: id bring a white towel for throwing in from the corner :pfft: (dude age comments to a women??? i think you need more carbs :pfft: )

Im convinved Lisa will do extreamly well in the future, she obviuosly has the right mental attributes, and to succed at this level its the muscle between the ears that is most important

Juliette burgman see there we agree :nod: xoxox

[nate225]

LOL you're dead right re: my previous comment, if it's any consolation I'm probably in the upper quartile of BBers in terms of ages, so can I put it down to senility? :grin: (the carbs aint a problem here! :grin: ).

Good comments though Mike, sounds like you, MuscleNZ & I have got Juliette Bergman up there, if only the IFBB could see the light! Iris Kyle? :roll:

[genetic freek]

LOL you're dead right re: my previous comment, if it's any consolation I'm probably in the upper quartile of BBers in terms of ages, so can I put it down to senility? :grin: (the carbs aint a problem here! :grin: ).

Good comments though Mike, sounds like you, MuscleNZ & I have got Juliette Bergman up there, if only the IFBB could see the light! Iris Kyle? :roll:

You going to compete masters next year nate? 10years scince the mighty 2000 show down. Could be replecated agian!

[diamond]

Come on guys, keep the use of smileys down to a max of 3 per post :pfft: :nod: :grin:

[nate225]

LOL you're dead right re: my previous comment, if it's any consolation I'm probably in the upper quartile of BBers in terms of ages, so can I put it down to senility? :grin: (the carbs aint a problem here! :grin: ).

Good comments though Mike, sounds like you, MuscleNZ & I have got Juliette Bergman up there, if only the IFBB could see the light! Iris Kyle? :roll:

You going to compete masters next year nate? 10years scince the mighty 2000 show down. Could be replecated agian!

LOL - not a show, Darren wouldn't have much trouble beating me again! He's packed it on while I've been hiding as a U105! Will be good to see him on stage again tho.

[cantygirl]

Hi, this is a really political hotbed re the open figure short. I have it on good authority that Nerali was told to go up north and quality in physique as she would do well in that section. There needs to be a more clear line made of what is figure and what is physique (nice cut muscle, but not the bulk). I think she was placed 3rd to set an example to other physique/figure girls but I feel if the judges were going to go that far, they should have placed her 4th.

[musclenz]

Hi, this is a really political hotbed re the open figure short. I have it on good authority that Nerali was told to go up north and quality in physique as she would do well in that section. There needs to be a more clear line made of what is figure and what is physique (nice cut muscle, but not the bulk). I think she was placed 3rd to set an example to other physique/figure girls but I feel if the judges were going to go that far, they should have placed her 4th.

All that her placing did, regardless of whether you compete in IFBB or NABBA, is make a mockery of judging in NZ. To then go to Australia the next day & WIN the NABBA Australasia Competition in Figure can only reinforce the disparity between our competitions & overseas events.

[michaelk]

Hi, this is a really political hotbed re the open figure short. I have it on good authority that Nerali was told to go up north and quality in physique as she would do well in that section. There needs to be a more clear line made of what is figure and what is physique (nice cut muscle, but not the bulk). I think she was placed 3rd to set an example to other physique/figure girls but I feel if the judges were going to go that far, they should have placed her 4th.

All that her placing did, regardless of whether you compete in IFBB or NABBA, is make a mockery of judging in NZ. To then go to Australia the next day & WIN the NABBA Australasia Competition in Figure can only reinforce the disparity between our competitions & overseas events.

I say it might make a mockery of the NABBA judging, I wasn't at that show nor have seen pics so don't know how the competition looked- they may have been far too soft of have had even more muscle?

BUT having been sitting in the very front at the nationals I can clearly state the Nerali was definatley a world class physique competitor not figure, if that if figure in Aus then they have changed a lot from the original idea.

No different to someone turning up to do physique who would fly into the Classic class.

Honestly there were open men that had less muscle than Nerali, I don't know her personally and have nothing but respect for the physique she presented, but it was a physique not a figure.

[Ol Skool]

Two points to that...

If she was clearly too muscular for figure, why did she win her division and the overall figure title at the Wellington Show a few weeks prior? That would be a green light IMO.

Secondly, surely she would not be in the same ball park as the bigger physique girls - Kaye, Michelle etc, she would have been too small to worry them I think.

[MasterTel]

Two points to that...

If she was clearly too muscular for figure, why did she win her division and the overall figure title at the Wellington Show a few weeks prior? That would be a green light IMO.

Secondly, surely she would not be in the same ball park as the bigger physique girls - Kaye, Michelle etc, she would have been too small to worry them I think.

To be fair to Neralee, she was originally a physique competitor, has represented NZ at the IFBB Worlds in Body Fitness and has most recently competed in Figure. She has the ability to transform her look, and she has had recommendations from a couple of NZFBB judges to consider a return to physique (based on the physique she presented at the Wellington Champs).

As for why she won her class and the Overall title at the Wellington Champs? The key is not to look solely at Neralee, but in particular to look at the other competitors. An excellent explanation given to me by a couple of judges is that they have an ideal look for an overall winner and they select the competitor who they consider to be closest to that ideal. Therefore, in the case of the Wellington Champs overall figure line-up, the judges (or at least the majority of them) considered Neralee to be nearer to that ideal Figure look than the next best competitor.

[bigmd]

Two points to that...

If she was clearly too muscular for figure, why did she win her division and the overall figure title at the Wellington Show a few weeks prior? That would be a green light IMO.

Secondly, surely she would not be in the same ball park as the bigger physique girls - Kaye, Michelle etc, she would have been too small to worry them I think.

To be fair to Neralee, she was originally a physique competitor, has represented NZ at the IFBB Worlds in Body Fitness and has most recently competed in Figure. She has the ability to transform her look, and she has had recommendations from a couple of NZFBB judges to consider a return to physique (based on the physique she presented at the Wellington Champs).

As for why she won her class and the Overall title at the Wellington Champs? The key is not to look solely at Neralee, but in particular to look at the other competitors. An excellent explanation given to me by a couple of judges is that they have an ideal look for an overall winner and they select the competitor who they consider to be closest to that ideal. Therefore, in the case of the Wellington Champs overall figure line-up, the judges (or at least the majority of them) considered Neralee to be nearer to that ideal Figure look than the next best competitor.

Stole the words out of my mouth

Hi, this is a really political hotbed re the open figure short. I have it on good authority that Nerali was told to go up north and quality in physique as she would do well in that section. There needs to be a more clear line made of what is figure and what is physique (nice cut muscle, but not the bulk). I think she was placed 3rd to set an example to other physique/figure girls but I feel if the judges were going to go that far, they should have placed her 4th.

All that her placing did, regardless of whether you compete in IFBB or NABBA, is make a mockery of judging in NZ. To then go to Australia the next day & WIN the NABBA Australasia Competition in Figure can only reinforce the disparity between our competitions & overseas events.

If you look at the criterea for IFBB/NZFBB figure Nerali is definatly to muscular, and as Master Tel said her overall win in wellington is base on her look and also the look that her competion presented, and she was definatly the best presented athlete on that day.

Id like to say firstly that Nerrali has built a tremnedous amount of Muscle so her placing at the NZFBB nats should not be taken that the judges dont like her physique, just that it was presented in possibly the wrong class, i was one of the Judges that spoke to her in wellington about competing in Bodybuilding, and as for her not being competitive against Michelle or the other Open U55kg... id beg to differ there. As a judge i beleive she would fair very well in that class.

There is no question also that the look in figure NABBA and IFBB are different, I have coached 3 athletes to compete in international NABBA events (worlds and Universe) all placing in the top7 and as high as 2nd (priscilla clark, Janine Brown, steph Waklin) and in Nabba i would bring them in Big and Rock hard, even to the point where i was told by NABBA to tone them down. None of these girls were even close to the Musculature of Nerrili.

All the judges commented on what an incredable physique she had, but the 1st and 2nd placed athletes had a more approprate package for that class. as for placing 4th again thats then compairing her to the 4th place getter; it then comes down to the judging feeling that she had a packge better than the 4th place athlete, again it comes down to her placing reflexs not just her physique but the athletes she is competing against.

id still love to see her kick off her shoes and give BBing ago again with the package she now has.

[Loochi]

Sorry about the off topic but...

This might sound stupid or whatever, but I'm curious...

You know how everyone says Sanjeev looked awesome but didn't possess the 'mass' that Darryn had so he didn't take the over all...

Isn't that the same thing last year with Dan and Grant?? OR

Was it because Dan was sooo ripped???

If so, If Sanjeev was ripped like Dan, could he have possibly taken it??

Btw, I'm not taking anything away from Darryn or Dan or anyone Jus wondering..

[michaelk]

Sanjeev was not as ripped as Dan

Grant was not as ripped as Darren

With all these athletes it was a case of the winner on the day, and on other days could have gone the other way- as it did earlier last year when Grant placed ahead of Dan.

[Loochi]

so...? Size doesn't matter?? It's just about bein lean right??

I mean, Dan had AWESOME proportions and everything really, conditioning, symmtry etc, but at the end of the day, size doesnt matter??

Like, I want to REALLY know how Dan won, I'm not hating, I am actually intrigued by this eh.

Was it posing? condition?? symmtry? presentation?? all of the above? etc..

It kinda gives us hope for the smaller dudes.... sorta LOL.

If they let Aron Noble in the over alls (why dont they even let the classics... wth..)

Could he have won?? And why not... Someone please don't say 'doesn't have the mass'.

[1day]

so...? Size doesn't matter?? It's just about bein lean right??

.

mabe u shuda stuck around til the end loochi and taken it out

[Loochi]

LOL , I wish.

[michaelk]

so...? Size doesn't matter?? It's just about bein lean right??

I mean, Dan had AWESOME proportions and everything really, conditioning, symmtry etc, but at the end of the day, size doesnt matter??

Like, I want to REALLY know how Dan won, I'm not hating, I am actually intrigued by this eh.

Was it posing? condition?? symmtry? presentation?? all of the above? etc..

It kinda gives us hope for the smaller dudes.... sorta LOL.

If they let Aron Noble in the over alls (why dont they even let the classics... wth..)

Could he have won?? And why not... Someone please don't say 'doesn't have the mass'.

Of course size matters, don't be under the illusion that Dan is all that small, look at his legs for example- big. He maybe under 70k but he's not as tall either so it is proportionate.

As to your question of "Was it posing? condition?? symmtry? presentation?? all of the above? etc.." Yes, yes, yes, yes and yes.

Should he be beaten because he has ALL these attributes over someone else and not the size over them. If so then would you have the Heavyweight win everytime REGARDLESS of their condition, structure, presentation, symetry?

No he would not have won - he doesn't have the mass!, it's not that big Darren would make him look small, but Karl Cook would make him look small (Karl has won 5 open national titles by the way and placed 3rd in the Overall) as Karl would be the same weight or similar to Aaron but not as tall- I'm estimating heights here.

Remember bodybuilding is judged on many levels, size, cuts, structure, balance. Rarely does one bodybuilder possess all attributes to a high level on a National stage, this is why some times a smaller guy will win, he may not have the size, but outstrips the big guy in the other areas. It can be that his weaknesses (size) are not as bad as the big guys weaknesses (cuts, balance etc) ie the lesser of the evils.

Make sense?

[Loochi]

Yeah bro it makes sense and yeah I agree his legs are MASSIVE and cut.. His arms are awesome too, infact everything is, REALLY hard to believe he's under 70kgs eh...

How long has Dan been training and competing for?? Pretty inspiring to be honest.