2009 NZFBB NZ National Champs

[rollesbygirl]

You are forgiven, I know how hard you work, proves how much it means to you, pehaps if we had more of you and Mike D and Kaye spread around the country, us armchair critics would have less to whinge about :nod:

[michaelk]

Couple of interesng thoughts, both Pro and Anti Terry's position.

A few years ago when the fed was severly in the RED and owed one particulary exec member $25k, a reduction in shows was used as a method of getting into the black, and appears to have worked. Additional shows can work when privately run with the sanction fee paid (i remember being told this was not possible- works now) and removing the risk to the fed, and rewarding those that put on a sound business head, take the risk and run a good show.

So- why add more shows and go backwards, unless they are sanction fee paid with no risk to the fed.

As to the only letting 5 people perform their routines, saturdays event finished at a good time of 10pm (unlike the 1.30am finishes of the early 00's), what would Lisa have to say if that had been the case- "The show ran too long"?

[Jimbob]

here's my two cents: You are always selling something to a market, and that market needs to be understood. Remember these points:

1) It costs a shedload to prep for a BB comp

2) It's as expensive to go watch a show as it is to go and watch an All Black test on the terraces at Eden Park ($50 odd per ticket)

3) Last time I looked it seems this sport is predominantly blue collar, the dempographic affected most by current economic climate. Having said that I don't know too many un-affected by the recession.

If the main source of people watching a show are those supporting athletes then in these tough times (and end to which won't filter down to the blue collar end until late next year at least) less shows the better.

Auckland can really only take two shows per year, Dunedin has shown it can't take any. Don't make the same mistakes that put the fed into the proverbial a couple of years back.

Consolidating in 2010 what the NZFBB has right now could be the best business decision made in a long time. Grow it in 2011!

[MasterTel]

Some interesting points, Mike and Jimbob, but I think you are missing a very important consideration.

True - having more shows is not wise IF they are losing money. Since 2004 the NZFBB has probably had 2 or 3 shows (out of approx 40 shows) that have lost money - one was privately promoted (so no loss to the NZFBB as the promoters wore the loss) and the other two made a combined loss of approx $500. Many of the other shows made over $5K profit and the NZFBB has made approx $40K profit in both 2007 and 2008.

While making a profit on a show is very important (but certainly not the only consideration), we would never intentionally run an event if it was likely to lose money. Some events end up making a lot less money than expected e.g. this year's North Island Champs in Masterton. I expected 35+ competitors but due to a few factors only 20 made it on stage. The entry fees were down and obviously the ticket income was significantly reduced. Despite that, the event made a $700 profit, plus the NZFBB gained a further $500 from membership fees, so a combined gain of $1,200. The small group of competitors had a good time, it was a fun show, so it was a success despite the profit being about $2,500 less than expected. If we hadn't run the event, we would have $1,200 less in our bank account now.

Also, the main reason the NZFBB had incurred a debt of approx $55K back in early 2005 was due mainly to over-expenditure of sending competitors overseas when the funds were not there to do so. There was other factors, but local events running at a loss was only a minor cause of the problem. Sure, back then many Auckland regional events held in March plus shows in Dunedin generally lost money, and removing certain events and holding others later in the year has improved this situation. The major improvement has been in reducing event expenses.

I did mention 2 or 3 new/different shows next year, but the nett result will probably be just one additional show with one or two replacements (e.g. the Wanganui event being replaced by one in a different location).

[Jimbob]

MT: You missed the H out of Whanganui. Sorry, couldn't resist that one.

Fair play, I forgot about the overseas athlete issues of yesteryear. If the shows are making a profit, then all good, they should stay. If you are only adding one more for 2010, the it's not too bad.

Has the NZFBB ever thought about taking the photography/DVD arrangments in house? I'm sure Keith Jolly wouldn't like me saying it, but there's probably good money to be made by doing that. Just a suggestion I guess.

Does the rule regarding membership still stand, that is do you have to rejoin if you compete in a NABBA comp?

[Ol Skool]

Hello,

Long time observer, first time poster.

I've been following the plight of NZ bodybuilders, both here and abroad, for a while and I try to support all major events.

I've got a few points from the Nationals over the weekend...

1) I found the judging of some of the figure classes very puzzling. Take Open Figure Short for example. How can it be that Neralie Montague could only place third at the NZ Nationals and clean up the very next day at the much more competitive Aussie Nabba Nationals (beating the likes of former Universe Champ Terri Roberts). NOt only that, I see that she has been invited to the Universe Champs in Britan.

IMO Neralie clearly looked to have the best figure in that class...the judges obviously disagreed. It would have been great to see her go up against VIcky Cattle. Sesa also placed down. THe judges seemed to go a bit harder on the girls with a bit of muscle. Thoughts??

2) Am I the only one to think that Sanjeev was unlckly not to get the overall? I thought he was a shoe-in for last year and should've pipped Darryn as well this year. The guy is the total package - mass, shape, condition, the works.

3) Lastly I was interested to see Kaye Oneil and Michelle Heggie battle it out. Kaye deservedly won but who do you all think would come out on top if Kaye and Jo Stewart were to go head-to-head? Any opinions.

[Gym rat]

I would pick Jo Stewart to beat Kaye \:D/ \:D/

[Ol Skool]

Thanks for the opinion.

Were you at the NAtionals? Any takes on the Sanjeev and Neralie questions?

[soundsgood]

Hi Ol Skool, I agree with you about Neralie, she looked to have it in the bag but obviously didnt fit the judges criteria.

As far as Sesa was concerned she came in softer than the Auckland show as requested and was marked down for it in the end. Tough class to call though cos all 3 girls were completely different shapes.

I agree Sanjeev has an amazing physique but personally would place him third overall at the Nats behing Darryn and Nato. He has the tiny waist and amazing width but not the freak appeal of the the two bigger guys. I would also love to see the classic class winner being included in the overalls one day cos any of the top 3 of that class would have made a good run at placing top 3 in the overalls.

[michaelk]

I was sitting up the very front at the night show, my thoughts on your questions- I love a good debate about this sport- we all have opinions.

If the classic mens were allowed in, with all respect to Aaron who looked spectacular, but he would get completely outmuscled. There were big Novice guys up there that on their own looked great, but next to the likes of Darren and Sanjeev, showed they had more work to do.

Sanjeev for the overall? not this year, but I think he'll be a front runner for next year. Out muscled and out conditioned- he has great points but his areas that need more development to compliment his physique (arm size and calves) are Darrens strengths.

By his own opinion Sanjeev hadn't nailed his condition- which Darren clearly had, Sanjeev has one of the most amazing genetic structures I've seen and should be going to the Worlds if he wanted to- just my thoughts, don't know his opinion on it.

Is it just me or do his lats finish closer to his elbows than his shoulders?

PS Nato didnt make the overall line up to be considered 2nd, only class winners are eligible and Darren won the heavyweights.

Sesa and Narelei, I'd like to see Sesa conditioned halfway between what she showed on saturday and the Aucklands where she achieved the condition of her life and was very dialled in.

Figure has taken a softer look to ten years ago so the condition that Neralie showed is not suitable.

Both have world class bodies, I think Sesa's structure is Pro figure potential - great lines, quads, lats and delts- personally I think she has better genetics than her brother, and could actually make a fist of either figure or physique.

Neralie has a world class Physique not figure and would have given both Kaye and Michelle a serious run for their money.

The difference between NABBA and IFBB is why she did well in Aus, that is what NABBA want, not what IFBB want- cool, each to their own.

Kaye vs Jo---i'll make a tactical retreat and pass on that, other than to say- cuts vs structure, which is which? you decide.

OF course this is all opinion, I'm not a judge-just a guy calling what he sees

[Jimbob]

I love a debate too, and love putting it out there:

1) Kaye over Jo any day.

2) Classic should remain outside the overalls. They have their own class at the worlds, so I don't see it as an issue. You wouldn't notice Aron as mr Kingsnorth says.

3)Personally, I'd have Sanjeev anyday over the other fellas. His structure is fantastic. A number of guys I have spoken to say he didn't nail condition though. Still a great structure, reminds me of some of the more classical bbs of yesteryear.

IMO 'freak factor' isn't an issue here, and never should be in judging.

[MasterTel]

Unfortunately I was stuck at the side of the stage for 99% of the event (being stage marshal and playing the music), so I can't comment on any comparions.

Regarding the Classic Men's class, I'm a big fan of this class with me and Mike D being the Execs to push to have this class included back in 2006 and 2007. I also competed in the Classic class 4 times in 2007. I agree that, while Aron has a fantastic physique plus the overall quality and depth was one of the best at Nationals (as it was last year), it does not warrant having the winner line up with the physique winners in the Overall lineup.

What I see as more appropriate for the Classic class is to introduce a separate Overall title when at least one more Classic class is introduced e.g. having Tall and Short classes. This would make it very similar to Body Fitness, which also does not have an Overall title at a regional event but it does at Nationals. And given that there are a lot more Classic Men competitors than Body Fitness (e.g. 7 vs 4 at Nationals), it would make this a logical progression. But we do need more competitors doing Classic to warrant an extra class.

Ideally I would like to see more competitors in both the Classic Men and Body Fitness classes. I don't want to ignite the recent rule change re Body Fitness & Figure qualification, but surely one significant intention of that change is to get more ladies to compete in Body Fitness. Let's also hope that we can get more guys to do Classic as well! :nod:

[Gym rat]

Thanks for the opinion.

Were you at the NAtionals? Any takes on the Sanjeev and Neralie questions?

No I was not nats but I was checking the updates on this site and on go figure. No I do not have any takes on the Sanjeev and Neralie question

[weener lad]

it does not warrant having the winner line up with the physique winners in the Overall lineup.

Sorry MasterTel I completely disagree. Classic class is proving to be one of the most consistant classes in NZFBB. You could have gone to allot of shows (nationals excluded) this year and last and the biggest most conditioned guys were in the classic class. By your reasoning the under 70kg lads and most novices shouldn't be lining up with the overalls!

I'm not going to argue that Classic should be in overalls because the rules say it wont and everybody who competes in that class knows it and has made their peace with it :pfft:

What I see as more appropriate for the Classic class is to introduce a separate Overall title when at least one more Classic class is introduced e.g. having Tall and Short classes

Bang on with this though :clap: Perhaps due to regional numbers still being slightly low it is something that could be introduced at a national level untill the numbers build up.

[deeepsouth_nz]

Definately think having a Classic Short and Tall would have its merit if the weight calculations that went along with those heights was sorted out comparably MT. :grin:

[michaelk]

the biggest most conditioned guys were in the classic class. By your reasoning the under 70kg lads and most novices shouldn't be lining up with the overalls!

:shock: :shock: :shock:

Not sure what shows your at? but the Classic men being bigger than the physique men......not even close.

due to the height to weight restriction, some of the under 70k competitors may well be 3-4kg over their classic limit.

I will give you that they achieve incredible condition though.

PS -cool moment of the night for me- standing around having a chat with Daniel Hibbs and Joe Ulberg and thinking- holy shit- I'm talking to Daniel Hibbs, he's Mr NZ, Damm, I'm talking to Joe Ulber too, he is also a Mr NZ, Freekin hell, 2 Mr NZ's are talking to me!!

:nod: :nod:

[MasterTel]

Sorry MasterTel I completely disagree. Classic class is proving to be one of the most consistant classes in NZFBB. You could have gone to allot of shows (nationals excluded) this year and last and the biggest most conditioned guys were in the classic class. By your reasoning the under 70kg lads and most novices shouldn't be lining up with the overalls!

Fair enough, weener lad. Part of my argument about excluding Classic from the overalls is due to the IFBB rules (e.g. different judging criteria and a separate World event for Classic bodybuilding) but also that a separate Overall title for Classic would be more appropriate once numbers justify it.

I have always been a strong advocate of Novice and age-group winners joining the Open class winners to contest an Overall title. I remember when this was introduced in 2002 and I managed to make several Overall lineups by winning my Masters Over 40 class at a regional. I never had the slightest chance of winning it, but to me it is a privilege to be in such a lineup, and a mark of respect to the other competitors by doing it - to the others in the Overall lineup plus those who didn't make it but would have loved to be there. I always encourage Teenage, Junior and Novice winners to do the Overalls - they may not win it but at the very least its a great chance to stand next to top notch competitors - the standard of which they will hopefully achieve themselves in the future.

In terms of a Classic winner possibly winning an Overall physique title - yes, many Classic competitors do compare favourable with some of the best physique competitors, but I can't think of one show where they would have won the Overall title. The nearest may have been in Masterton this year (when Aron once again won the North Island Classic title), but I couldn't see him beating Brian McFarlane for the Overall title.

On the other hand, quite often a Junior or Masters/Senior competitor will and has won the Overall title e.g. this year with Steve Orton (Junior) winning the South Island Champs Overall title and Vickie Cattell (Senior Figure Over 45) winning both South Island and Nationals Overall Figure titles.

[MasterTel]

Definately think having a Classic Short and Tall would have its merit if the weight calculations that went along with those heights was sorted out comparably MT. :grin:

We can stick with the current height/weight ratios, ds - all competitors would still need to qualify using those ratios. We could come up with a height which would give the ideal split between competitors. Perhaps study the heights of all competitors that have done Classic over the past 3 years and calculate a height that would give an even number of competitors either side? We would need to be consistent and stick with that dividing height to ensure consistency across all events. I imagine the 1.64m height split used for Figure and Body Fitness has been around for many years.

[weener lad]

Not sure what shows your at? but the Classic men being bigger than the physique men......not even close.

Yip fair call I was trying to illustrate the point that often the classic class guys are comparable to allot of the physique guys. Maybe not the overall winner at shows but easily top 3 (look at muscle imaging if you doubt it).

[ngai2]

As far as Sesa was concerned she came in softer than the Auckland show as requested and was marked down for it in the end. Tough class to call though cos all 3 girls were completely different shapes

It would have been great to see her go up against VIcky Cattle. Sesa also placed down. THe judges seemed to go a bit harder on the girls with a bit of muscle. Thoughts??

.

Fair call about figure girls being marked down for too much muscularity. although Vicky Cattel seemed to have just enough, edging out Sheryl Patterson... And as for Sesa I dont think she was marked down for being too muscular. If she was advised to come in softer maybe a little less softer would have been the order of the day. I believe she was marked down for being out of condition rather than for having too much muscle... It was a great coup for Maureen taking the National Title from Sesa who was expeted to win it!

[oomps]

Sorry "Gym Rat"... Sorry "World"

Ol Skool Wrote "who do you all think would come out on top if Kaye and Jo Stewart were to go head-to-head? Any opinions.

I's say Kaye!

As for the other results... I tend to agree with those on the day...

Regards

Oomps

[nate225]

Sorry "Gym Rat"... Sorry "World"

Ol Skool Wrote "who do you all think would come out on top if Kaye and Jo Stewart were to go head-to-head? Any opinions.

I's say Kaye!

As for the other results... I tend to agree with those on the day...

Regards

Oomps

I'd say irrelevant..... Lisa Bailey would beat them both!! :nod:

[bigmd]

Sorry "Gym Rat"... Sorry "World"

Ol Skool Wrote "who do you all think would come out on top if Kaye and Jo Stewart were to go head-to-head? Any opinions.

I's say Kaye!

As for the other results... I tend to agree with those on the day...

Regards

Oomps

I'd say irrelevant..... Lisa Bailey would beat them both!! :nod:

Come on Nate. you have been around long enough to know that these comparisons can not be made of athletes untill the athletes are all on stage together. Not to be disrespectful but (and i havent seen any pics from the Aus NABBA show yet) but lisa to this point has never displayed the condition of Jo or Kaye. lisa has definatly done very well over the last few yrs, but to say lisa would beat a recent world/arnold amiture Champ muti Ms nz and now IFBB pro with out having them lined up against each other is a bit of slap in the face to Jo who has proven herself over and over and over again. Im not saying that she might not beat jo, but if BBing had world rankings (incorperating all federations) jo would be some where a bit futher up the ladder, but with lisa climbing every show she does. Hopefully we see Lisa cross ove to the IFBB push through into the Pro ranks, i think at that point making these sorts of comparisons would be more appropriate

[bigmd]

Ol Skool Wrote "who do you all think would come out on top if Kaye and Jo Stewart were to go head-to-head? Any opinions.

Id go with............Im not going to say!!!! :wink: But

Shoulders Kaye

Arms Jo

Chest Jo

Back Width Kaye

Back Depth Jo

Quads ????

Hamstrings Jo

Gluts Draw (for ladies of that age/any age GREAT BUMS :nod: )

Glut/Ham tie in (tough area for any one) Jo just maybe draw

Midsection Kaye Great upper ab thickness Jo lower ab tightness

Presentation awesome from both

[Outlaw53]

Sorry "Gym Rat"... Sorry "World"

Ol Skool Wrote "who do you all think would come out on top if Kaye and Jo Stewart were to go head-to-head? Any opinions.

I's say Kaye!

As for the other results... I tend to agree with those on the day...

Regards

Oomps

I'd say irrelevant..... Lisa Bailey would beat them both!! :nod:

Gee, remind me not to invite you over to judge the CCI.

No disrespect to Lisa, she has a wonderful physique and it was a pleasure to watch her over here in Aust last week, but to say that she could beat Jo is stretching it a bit I think.

I would say that Lisa looked about 4 weeks out to me, she will need to tighten things up for the Universe next week.

It was only her superior shape that got her over the line in Aust, Lilly had her on condition.

Mind you, if you are going by Jo's condition when she won the Arnold a few years ago then Lisa is about 8 weeks out.

Chalk and cheese in condition.