bulk up then cut up diet help please

[char_k]

Hi there

Question(s) for a friend who is about 93kg and about 20% bodyfat. He's looking at putting on muscle (and hopefully losing a little bodyfat) until the end of the year, then focusing on keeping muscle and losing fat for a competition in May. Any idea how much weight he should expect to gain then lose? What bodyfat % do novices usually compete at?

Here's what he's been eating (note he's gluten intolerant):

Breakfast (6.20am): about 80g gluten-free cereal (5.44g protein, 62.24g CHO, 4.4g fat), milk and fruit

Morning tea (9am): coffee and gluten-free muffin or muesli bar

Lunch (noon): 1.5 cups basmati rice, 150-200g meat (chicken, tuna or steak) and veges

Workout (1.30) Just over an hour, one body part per day, includes about 15 minutes hi-intensity cardio

Post workout meal (3pm) 2 whole eggs, small can baked beans, 2 slices gluten-free toast, fruit

Dinner (6.00) as for lunch

Supper (9.00) yoghurt and fruit. Sometimes gluten-free toast.

Thinking of changing to the following until the end of the year to increase protein (have found out some Musashi product are gluten-free). Does it sound OK given the goals above?

Breakfast: 80g apricot & raisin rice porridge (4.6g protein, 57.8g CHO, 1.6g fat) made with water plus 1 serve Musashi WPI (26.6g protein, 0.4g CHO, 0.5g fat) mixed in. Milk on top. Maybe some flax oil?

Morning Tea: coffee plus Musashi P40 bar (40g protein, 18.9g CHO, 9.8g fat) and a piece of fruit

Lunch: 1.5 cups basmati rice, 185g tuna and veges. Flax oil?

Post workout meal: banana + potato/brown rice/gluten-free bread to equal about 100g of CHO, meat to equal about 50g protein

Dinner: 1.5 cups basmati rice, 200g meat (chicken, fish or steak) and veges. Flax oil?

Supper: yoghurt with 1 serve Musashi WPI protein mixed in. Maybe some fruit

Works out to roughly 270g protein per day (about 3g per kilo of current weight) and about 380g per day of CHO (not counting fibrous veges).

Thanks in anticipation!

[Pseudonym]

Hi Char_k (and welcome!)

Here are a couple of thoughts:

- If your friend is currently sitting at 20%BF, I wouldn't be too hasty to "bulk up" further. This is personal preference, and others on the forum may disagree, but I don't believe there's much benefit in putting on fat, only to have to shed it all again later. That's not to say you have to be completely anal about keeping the BF levels down, but I wouldn't suggest going up much higher than 20%.

- I don't know what time you work out, but you might consider afternoon tea beforehand. If you did add another meal, have some more protein, but don't put in any more carbs - just take them from elsewhere in your daily total.

- Maybe swap your postworkout protein source with another meal, so that you've got a protein shake post workout, and the meal somewhere else. The shake is just easier to digest, which is what you need PW.

Other than that, it looks like a fairly good start, and you can always fine-tune the details as you go...

[jono]

theres no where near enough food there to maintain any descent amount of muscle.

meats, fish, chicken etc in huge amounts should be eaten. along with large amounts of complex carbs. good fats should also be eaten, flax seed oil, fish oil etc etc.

i would add in some cardio, treat is as a wt session in terms of diet, just to see how he reacts to cardio etc. from there you will be able to work out what needs to be done. its all individual

[deegee]

Everyonw wants to bulk up and cut some fat at thee same time. I am of the opinion you can either bulk or cut just one or the other, decide which it is to be and go for it then do the other. At 20% bf I would do a cut first.

[frogie2001]

IF HE IS 20% BF THAT IS AROUND 75KG LEAN MASS. FOR THIS IF HE TAKES IT TO AROUND 2500 CALORIES A DAY HE WILL MAINTAIN THAT BODY MASS. IF HE INCREASES IT HE WILL GAIN IF HE DECREASES IT HE WILL LOSE.

i AGREE WITH THE BULKING, HE IS ALREADY UP THERE. HE SHOULD BE AHPPY WITH AROUND 15% BF FOR A BULKING PHASE.

i DID NOTICE A LACK OF PROTEIN THOUGH IN SOME OF THE MEALS. TRY AND KEEP AROUND 30-40 GM PER MEAL. CARBS ARE GOOD, KEEP WITH THE RICE (BROWN IF YOU CAN) AND VEGES)

WHEN IT COMES TO DROPPING THE BF. LOOK AT REDUCING THE CALORIE INTAKE BY REDUCING THE CARBS. THIS WILL MAKE THE BODY USE ALL THE PROTEIN AS ENERGY, AND EATING THE FAT.

IF HE IS GLUTEN INTOLERANT, I SUGGEST GOING TO A DIETICIAN THAT IS bb ORIENTATED, TO GAIN A LIST OF FOODS THAT CAN FULFILL HIS REQUIREMENTS, AS I MUST ADMIT THAT I DON'T EVEN KNOW WHAT GLUTEN IS .

[jono]

Everyonw wants to bulk up and cut some fat at thee same time. I am of the opinion you can either bulk or cut just one or the other, decide which it is to be and go for it then do the other. At 20% bf I would do a cut first.

i agree you cant do both. also heres somehting to think about, i think cutting right after a bulk is a bad idea in general.. you will lose a lot of the gains you made .. or MORE than woul would if you held the weight for a while and really solidified the muscle gains

[frogie2001]

REV-RAND (blazing saddles)

got that right. i think the big thing is to remember that gains take a lot of time, especially ones that stay with you/

[char_k]

Hi Pseudonym

Thanks for your reply and welcome.

Here are a couple of thoughts:

- I don't know what time you work out, but you might consider afternoon tea beforehand. If you did add another meal, have some more protein, but don't put in any more carbs - just take them from elsewhere in your daily total.

- Maybe swap your postworkout protein source with another meal, so that you've got a protein shake post workout, and the meal somewhere else. The shake is just easier to digest, which is what you need PW.

- he has lunch at about 12 then a workout when he finishes work at about 1.30 so no time for afternoon tea beforehand but will try to have a protein shake postworkout (perhaps with a banana sandwich) then an early dinner a couple of hours later.

Thanks!

[char_k]

Hi Jono

theres no where near enough food there to maintain any descent amount of muscle.

meats, fish, chicken etc in huge amounts should be eaten. along with large amounts of complex carbs. good fats should also be eaten, flax seed oil, fish oil etc etc.

i would add in some cardio, treat is as a wt session in terms of diet, just to see how he reacts to cardio etc. from there you will be able to work out what needs to be done. its all individual

Hopefully the new diet will provide enough food to maintain muscle. He is doing a little cardio after each workout but is going to try doing cardio on his day off weights mid-week as well. Thanks!

[char_k]

Hi Deegee

Everyonw wants to bulk up and cut some fat at thee same time. I am of the opinion you can either bulk or cut just one or the other, decide which it is to be and go for it then do the other. At 20% bf I would do a cut first.

I agree with what you say. I did a cut first myself and now I can see where I am adding muscle Trouble is trying to convince him that. I guess he wants to use the next few months as a last-ditch attempt to add some muscle before he has to start dieting in earnest. Cheers.

[char_k]

Hi Frogie2001

IF HE IS 20% BF THAT IS AROUND 75KG LEAN MASS. FOR THIS IF HE TAKES IT TO AROUND 2500 CALORIES A DAY HE WILL MAINTAIN THAT BODY MASS. IF HE INCREASES IT HE WILL GAIN IF HE DECREASES IT HE WILL LOSE.

i AGREE WITH THE BULKING, HE IS ALREADY UP THERE. HE SHOULD BE AHPPY WITH AROUND 15% BF FOR A BULKING PHASE.

i DID NOTICE A LACK OF PROTEIN THOUGH IN SOME OF THE MEALS. TRY AND KEEP AROUND 30-40 GM PER MEAL. CARBS ARE GOOD, KEEP WITH THE RICE (BROWN IF YOU CAN) AND VEGES)

WHEN IT COMES TO DROPPING THE BF. LOOK AT REDUCING THE CALORIE INTAKE BY REDUCING THE CARBS. THIS WILL MAKE THE BODY USE ALL THE PROTEIN AS ENERGY, AND EATING THE FAT.

IF HE IS GLUTEN INTOLERANT, I SUGGEST GOING TO A DIETICIAN THAT IS bb ORIENTATED, TO GAIN A LIST OF FOODS THAT CAN FULFILL HIS REQUIREMENTS, AS I MUST ADMIT THAT I DON'T EVEN KNOW WHAT GLUTEN IS .

Thanks for the advice on calorie intake. Will try and keep at around 2800 calories on training days and 2500 calories on rest days for now (with 30-40g of protein per meal) and add in a little more cardio and see how that goes. Hopefully that will allow him to maintain (and perhaps grow?) muscle and drop some bodyfat.

Gluten is a form of protein found in wheat, oats, barley and rye. That means no bread, pasta, pastry, porridge, beer :shock: He was a bit apprehensive about precontest diet, but I told him he was halfway there as he is already used to not eating most of the stuff people have to give up!

[frogie2001]

keep the calories the same every day. recovery is just as important as working out, and the body needs fuel to recover. this is crucial. keep the calories the same everyday,. that way your body will know what is coming and be able to work most efficiently with the energy.

oh yeah and don't forget to have one cheat meal a week.

Pizza is my favourite :pfft:

[waldo]

REV-RAND (blazing saddles)

/

Hehehe, classic film! Oh no, six schnizengrubens are my limit!

[char_k]

oh yeah and don't forget to have one cheat meal a week.

Pizza is my favourite :pfft:

Gluten-free pizza isn't quite the same (think crumbly crust) but gluten-free pancakes with banana, maple syrup and bacon aren't bad!

Cheers