Good form on squats...

[Pseudonym]

I caught myself using bad form doing squats the other day. It's hard to describe, but what I'm doing almost looks a good-morning movement. I'm leaning too far forward, when my back should really be straighter.

Thing is, I can see I'm doing it wrong, but I can't fix it. As soon as I try to lean back so my torso is vertical, I lose my balance.

Putting a plank under my heels to raise them seems to help slightly, but it's still not good form.

Any suggestions?

[jerume]

i know the problem man,i never could do squats earlier this year,then i got my pt too show me how with a light weight,i did squats with 40kgs too learn the form,and i've slowly increased it without sacrificing form,i'm up too 5 sets of 10reps around 90kgs now,which is pretty good i think,i always used too find squats hard with form on my lower back,but once i did light weights and built it up watching my form it helped heaps!!

[Marcus]

I used to lean too far forward also, but now I've moved my stance wider & it seems to work. Give it a try.

[jono]

ive seen people doing this before aswell .. lighten the weight. heavy rack pulls / DL should help you maintain a stronger arch as well..

[Pseudonym]

I think I've found the problem... I'm just not flexible enough. Even when squatting with just the bar, and no weights, my knees won't go forward enough to allow me to squat without bending forward.

So I've been trying some stretches - I keep my back perfectly vertical, and my heels flat on the floor, then 'squat' down as far as I can just by moving my knees forward. It's not very far at all, so I'm pretty sure that's the cause of my poor form.

I feel that in the side (almost in the front, surprisingly) of my shins... I guess this would be the soleus I'm stretching?

From http://www.exrx.net/ExInfo/Squats.html

(I've highlighted the bit at the end that explains my problem)

Squat Analysis

Some physicians condemn squats citing how destructive they are to the knees despite scientific studies and millions of personal experiences to the contrary. One sports medicine doctor explained to me why squats were considered to be bad for the knee. He was actually telling me this between his sets of squats! Since sports medicine doctors only see people with injuries, one can guess why they may have developed this belief. The individuals they treat certainly do not a constitute a random sample, let alone a representative population, as any scientist knows is essential to even attempt to formulate inferences.

The NSCA position statement notes:

"Some reports of high injury rate may be based on biased samples. Others have attributed injuries to weight training, including the squat, which could have been caused by other factors. Injuries attributed to the squat may result not from the exercise itself, but from improper technique, pre-existing structural abnormalities, other physical activities, fatigue or excessive training."

An early study suggested deep knee bends with weights (squats) were hazardous to the ligamentuous structures of the knee. Later studies conclude squats improve knee stability if the lifting technique does not place rotary stresses on the knee (Fleck and Falkel, 1986). The NSCA state:

"Squats, when performed correctly and with appropriate supervision, are not only safe, but may be a significant deterrent to knee injuries."

Torque Force

Contrary to propaganda to the contrary, prominent weight training authorities demonstrate the squat with the knees flexing forward at the same distance as the hips flex backwards. Fredrick Hatfield, Ph.D., the first man to squat over 800 lbs, recommends the knees to extend over the feet with the back more upright for quadriceps development. "Strength Training for Young Athletes" by Steven J. Fleck, PhD and William J. Kraemer, PhD, illustrate parallel squats with the knees extending beyond the feet (knees moving forward with same magnitude as hip moving backwards).

Torque force is necessary for the muscles and joint structures to adapt to the respected overload. If the knee does not travel forward during the barbell squat, the quadriceps muscles are not significantly exercised. On the other hand, injury may result if the knee or lower back experience greater torque forces than what they are accustom.

Fry et. al. (2003) examined the hip and knee torque forces of variations of parallel barbels squats and concluded appropriate joint loading during this exercise may require the knees to move slightly past the toes.

Try this simplified qualitative method in determining relative torque forces in the knee and hip joints. First take a photograph of the barbell squat in a full decent with a perspective perpendicular to the joints plane. Draw a line of force through the resistance on its center of gravity, straight up and down, parallel to the force of gravity. Gravity acting on both the body mass and added mass (barbell) contribute to the resistance. On the barbell squat, the center of gravity is between the forefoot and heel. If it is not, the individual will fall over, toward the center of gravity. Incidentally, compression forces act upon the joints during the squat stance.

During the execution of a barbell squat, the knees and the hips travel in opposite directions away from the foot, or away from the center of gravity. Draw a second line on the knee joint parallel to the line of force. Draw a third line on the hip joint parallel to the previous lines. A relative comparison can be made on the torque forces of the knee and hip. Typically the torque forces are similar for the knee and hip joints on the barbell squat; the knees travel forward the same magnitude as the hips travel backwards. Generally speaking, during a powerlift type squat (bar lower behind the shoulders and a wider stance) the knee does not travel forward as far as a bodybuilding type squat. The hips typically travel back further with the torso bent forward on a powerlift type squat. This emphasizes the stronger hip extensors and consequently reduces knee extensor involvement. Knee torque is further reduced by a wide stance.

Rotary Force

The practice of adopting foot rotation to selectively strengthen individual muscles of the quadriceps is not supported by the literature (Boyden 2000; Signorile 1995). Knee rotation during the squat can increase the risk of injury (Fleck and Falkel, 1986). Signorile, et. al. states:

"Extreme outward toe point greatly reduces stability, it does not allow the proper drift of the hips as the lifter descends... Extreme inward toe points are equally dangerous, coupling the same problems of stability, base size and lower body drift with the added danger of bringing the knees together...this movement would place high stress on all connective tissue."

Full (Deep) Squat

Kreighbaum (1996) illustrate the safe position of a deep squat with the knees extending beyond the toes. Kreighbaum explains how a deep squat can be performed little chance of injury to the knee. The variables of concern:

- speed of descent

- size of calves and thighs

- strength of the controlling muscles

The primary danger to the knee occurs when the tissues of the calf and thigh press together altering the center of rotation back to the contact area creating a dislocation effect. The danger of knee injury in this situation may be prevented if either of the following factor are present:

- center of gravity of the body system is keep forward of the altered center of rotation

- muscles of the thigh are strong enough to prevent the body from resting or bouncing on the calves.

Kreighbaum conclude the deep squat is of little danger to the knees unless these variables and factors are disregarded. Certainly only a limit type of athletes may have a sports specific need to perform a full squat. Olympic weightlifters commonly bounce out of a full front squat with near maximum resistances during both the Clean & Jerk and Snatch. Incidentally, the wide stance during an Olympic style squat further reduces knee torque forces.

During the lower portions of the deep squat the lower back may flex if hip flexibility is inadequate. The risk of injury is increased if the muscles of the lower back are not strong enough to support the flexed spine or the joint structures have not progressively adapted to such a stress. Flexibility exercises can be performed if hip flexibility is insufficient for deep, or full squats.

Customization

If the body has not adapted to a greater torque force, injury can result. It is not necessary to avoid the torque force if the muscles and joint structures can adapt. See adaptation criteria. Of the hip and knee joint, the knee is more vulnerable to injury than the hip due to structural and functional differences. Certainly, if an individual has had a history of knee pain associated with these types of movements, the squat can be modified to to place more torque on the hip and consequently less on the knee joint. Based on the above analysis, this can be accomplished two ways. Simply by not squatting down all the way (e.g. 90°) both the knees and hip do not experience as great of torque forces. Although, this decrease is often off set by the tendency to add more weight to the exercise. Alternatively, by bending at the hip more than the knee, the knee will travel forward less, as in the powerlifting type squat. Recall, the quadriceps will not be exercises as intensely since there is less torque on the knee joint. In addition, since balance must be maintained over the feet, bending over not only transfers more torque to the hips, the torque forces through the spine (lower back) increase; another vulnerable joint for some. Certainly a compromise must be made to evenly distribute the torque force between the knee and the hip / lower back, particularly when both the knees and lower back are healthy.

If the ankle is not flexible enough to allow the knee to travel forward sufficiently, the back will need to be bent forward more to maintain the center of gravity within the foot base. Consequently the lower back with be subjected to greater torque forces. Squatting with the feet wide apart can alleviate part of the problem, allowing the back to be positioned more upright. This solution does not, however, distribute equal stresses on the quadriceps and glutes as would be possible with adequate ankle flexibility.

Until flexibility can be restored, a temporary solution is to elevate the ankles on a board or platform. This will allow the knees to travel forward the same distance as the hip travels backwards. Elevating the heels may present a risk to individuals with adequate ankle flexibility who have not adapted to greater torque forces through the knee. In which case, the knees can potentially travel forward more than what they are accustom. Even when elevating the heels with insufficient ankles flexibility, resistance should begin light and progress only 5-10% every workout until a true workout weight is achieved so joint adaption can occur.

Obviously, individuals who are at a higher risk for specific types of knee pain may choose to avoid certain exercises specifically designed to emphasis the quadriceps involvement by increased knee torque (e.g. front squats, sissy squats, safety squats, barbell hack squats, leg extensions). Likewise, individuals who are at a greater risk for particular types of lower back pain may choose to avoid certain exercises specifically designed to lower back involvement by increased lower back torque (e.g. squats, deadlifts) or hip torque (e.g. deep glute exercises).

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Boyden G, Kingman J, Dyson R, (2000). A comparison of quadriceps electromyographic activity with the position of the foot during the parallel squat. J Strength Cond Res. 14(4): 379-382.

Fleck, S.J. and Falkel, J.E. Value of Resistance Training for the Reduction of Sports Injuries. Sports Medicine, 3, 61-68, 1986.

Fry AC, Smith JC, Schilling BK. Effect of knee position on hip and knee torques during the barbell squat. J Strength Cond Res. 2003 Nov;17(4):629-33.

Hatfield, F.C. (1989). Power: A Scientific Approach, Contemporary Books, pg. 158.

Kraemer, W.J., Fleck, S.J. (1993). Strength Training for Young Athletes, Human Kinetics.

Kreighbaum, E., Katharine, B.M. (1996). Biomechanics; A Qualitative Approach for Studying Human Movement, Allyn & Bacon, 4, Pgs 203-204.

National Strength and Conditioning Association. The Squat Exercise in Athletic Conditioning, NSCA Position Statements.

Signorile JF, Kwiatkowksi K, Caruso JF, Robertson B, (1995). Effect of foot position on the electromyographical activity of the superficial quadriceps muscles during the parallel squat and knee extension. J Strength Cond Res. 9:182-187.

[jono]

if its just a flexibility issue then squatting with a weight you can do properly and gradually increasing it should solve the problem.. not complicated at all

[samoht]

You should try front squating thats what i do and have no problem at all

[Pseudonym]

Yup - front squats certainly help, and I've been doing them religiously (although I find they dig into my shoulders a bit, even with padding on the bar).

But changing the form/exercise/weight is only a temporary solution. It's a patch that doesn't really solve the underlying problem. This goes for anything, I think, but you've got to fix the cause as well.

I'm going to start working on the flexibility in my ankles, and I'll let you know how that goes. In the meantime, of course, I'll lighten the weight, widen my stance, and see if I can make front squats a bit more comfortable. :wink:

[Marcus]

I used to get sore shins/side of the cavle but since I've gone to a wider stance with toes pointing out it's been sweet. Below parallel too. It's weird coz when I weighted 70kg's I had very poor flexibility, but now at 90kgs it's heaps easier. I can touch my toes now too, when I was lighter I couldn't.

[samoht]

hi guys and girls

Just gonna tell you what i do for leg day.

Monday

Front squat

1set 60kg 15 reps, thats the warm up set

2set 100kg 12reps

3set 115-120reps 10 reps

last set 130-140 6-8reps then there's a drop set back down to 80-60kg until i go no more normaly its 15-20reps

Calf raises, old skool donky calf raises

1 set one of the guys on my back 80-90kg, 15reps

2 set same as above

3 set same as above

4 set same as above but 20reps

Stiff legged dead lifts

1 set 60kg warm up set, 15 reps

2 set 90kgs 12reps

3 set 110kgs 10reps

4 set 130kgs 6-8reps

Thats leg training for the week, i also do 3 set of abs aswell.

The back's a bit sore after the work out just from the dead lifts.

Guys out there who train legs, TRAIN HARD MAKE SURE YOU GIVE IT 110% if your legs dont hurt the next day or the day after then your not training them hard enough. My moto is GO HARD OR GO HOME.

Thanks for letting me share that info with the rest of you.

Have nice day.

[Pseudonym]

So do you do all your leg training on the same day?

This last routine, I've experimented with separating each muscle into its own day - Quads / Hams / Calves. You've got to be careful how you design the routine then, but I'm finding it leaves me fresher to attack each muscle that much harder.

8)

[samoht]

yep do all of my leg work out on the same day. i can see the differents in the legs there growing cazy over the last 5 months.

At the begaining of the yaer i did my stats but i wasn't training at the time i was still playing gridion.

Quads left side 23.5 right 23.5

Calves left 16.5 right 16.5

stas that i did last week on the 24/11/04

Quads left side 26 right 26

Calves left 18 right 18

I want my quads to be bigger because the calves are catching up to them.

[NIVEK]

Do yourself justice people and Front Squat.

[Pseudonym]

Thanks, Nivek, and welcome to the board (and sorry it took me so long to say hi - how rude of me!)

On a lot of forums people tend to make statements without any further explanation, but I'm determined these guys are going to learn good habits from the start! :grin:

So... tell us a bit more about why you recommend a front squat? What are the advantages over the standard squat? If it targets the front of the quad better, is it still as good a compound movement?

8)

[Spitterkat]

do heavy deads my friend, and arch that back, sit down between your legs, you can do it, go bodyweight first just to rewire the neural pathways (i.e technique / form)