Please tell me why...

[Marcus]

I'm so crap at chin ups?

I can only squeeze out 3-4 reps at best. My form is good. I arch my back so all the weight is on my lats & full ROM.

I see a lot of the bigger boys can't do that many.

[Growth]

If i were you id start adding weight, even though you can only achieve 3 or 4 reps if you add say 10kg youll probabley find you can still pull off the same amount of reps.

Thats what worked for me anyway, i couldnt do shit all, now ive got 30kilos straped to me, i weight 95, and can pull off about 6 full ROM chins.

[Marcus]

Thanks, I'll give that a try next week.

[frogie2001]

YEAH I HAVE THE SAME PROBLEM. I CAN DO HEAVY LAT PULLS TILL THE COWS COME UP OVER THE HILL. BUT CHINS....

THE MOST I HAVE DONE UIN A ROW IS AROUND 6. MAY GIVE THEM A GO WITH WEIGHTS TOo

[waldo]

It's always been an exercise the little guy will excel at...simple physics. I know some incredibly strong people weighing around 100kg that can only do a handful, whereas another friend who does no training, weighs 55kg, can bash out 30 chins in one set.

Marcus, if you want to improve, try doing HEAPS of negative reps on chins. Jump up to the bar, you know the drill. Maybe combine them with rack chins...little by little....that's the name of the game.

[jono]

i find chins REALLY hard too. damn i hate chins :grin: but they work the lats real good

[ExpensiveUrine]

Depends when you perform them in the workout. Obviously If I worked the hell out of my biceps/back with heavy rows ect, I'd find it quite challenging to do them.

But all I can say to that is just continue to do chins (without added weight) until you reach a desired rep range, then add weight.

[Growth]

But all I can say to that is just continue to do chins (without added weight) until you reach a desired rep range, then add weight.

Adding weight is worth a shot, i was stagnant at 6-8 reps with BW for ages, so i added weight and found i could do similar reps.

Id give weight a go for a few workouts to see if it suits you.

[ExpensiveUrine]

I'm not sure why you were stagnated to be honest with you.

If he feels inclined to add weight and do 1-2 reps with questionable ROM, no problem. But in my opinion, it just seems too early. I don't see why he can't reach 8-10 or 10-12 chin ups and then add resistance.

[Pseudonym]

Adding weight is worth a shot, i was stagnant at 6-8 reps with BW for ages, so i added weight and found i could do similar reps.

Yeah, I found the same thing. I can't explain why it works, other than sometimes you just need to change things up.

Look at it this way - if you're not making any progress now, you're not going to be any worse off by trying a different approach for a bit. And you might just find it helps.

[Varven]

Same problem here, studk on 4 reps ! Trying rack chins.

Negatives and weight to follow.

Usually small guys get heaps of reps but how on earth do those army boys go for 30 reps and so.... a lot of them are considerably sized too !

[ExpensiveUrine]

I'm thinkin' upper body STRENGTH.....What are you thinking?

[hrdcor]

I would suggest the problem may not be in your back strength but in your leverage strength, ie your biceps!! you probibly fail in the incersion part of your biceps first(where the bicep connects down towards your forearm)this is common with alot of bodybuilders, the trick is to build your bicep strength and forearm strength and your chins will follow, I would suggest makeing sure you do Hammer curls and preacher curls in your bicep work outs, !!!

[Pseudonym]

What are rack chins? Would I know them by a different name? :think:

[Mercury]

Try Palms Up chins. These will place your biceps in a supinated position and therefore at their strongest to assist your pulling power with your arms. Having your arms in this position will allow you to work the lats to a point of failure greater than if you arms were the other way around and in a weaker position.

Normal wide grip chins with your palms facing away place your arms in this weaker position and you will fail quicker in the execise (with less weight) because the arms of course tire before the bigger and stronger lats are exhausted. With palms up chins/pulldowns you can work to a point of failure closer to your lats because your biceps are in their strongest position possible.

Why place your arms in a weaker position from the start?

[Ash]

What are rack chins? Would I know them by a different name? :think:

http://nzbb.co.nz/forum/viewtopic.php?p ... chins#6673

I reckon rack chins are a great exercise. I've made more progress with them than with regular chins.

[Varven]

Try Palms Up chins. These will place your biceps in a supinated position and therefore at their strongest to assist your pulling power with your arms. Having your arms in this position will allow you to work the lats to a point of failure greater than if you arms were the other way around and in a weaker position.

Normal wide grip chins with your palms facing away place your arms in this weaker position and you will fail quicker in the execise (with less weight) because the arms of course tire before the bigger and stronger lats are exhausted. With palms up chins/pulldowns you can work to a point of failure closer to your lats because your biceps are in their strongest position possible.

Why place your arms in a weaker position from the start?

Wont this just mean that your arms are working more than your back ?

theoretically I would think arm muscles are smaller than back, so eventually you would tire out in this position as well before you exhaust back ?

Will try it anyway.

[frogie2001]

whew I'm glad someone else has said this. I read an intersting article on working the back and getting maximum effort out of it. included the use of straps and squeezing the muscles. in the words of tom terry "mind to muscle". for this reason I grip the bar wide, strapped in nice and close, with thumbs over the grip too, and squeeze the back when contracting, using the arms just to get that little bit more of a squeeze. i find that using the straps saves the bicep a little, because of less grip required.

[ExpensiveUrine]

included the use of straps and squeezing the muscles.

Yeah, that's one thing I forgot to mention. Good call.

But if you're a PL or an OL grip work would be essential, rather than using straps.

[frogie2001]

yeah i've heard that one at the gym about forearm development and traiing etc. not a big fan. the forearms grow with use, but when it comes down to back i want isolation on the back. not using straps brings in forearm tying in the bicep, which will force failure of the arms before the back gives out. i've found this is the same for all the back ex's. rows etc. :cry:

[Growth]

I was just thinking about ash's post about guys in the arm being able to pull off high reps. Well if you think about it they probabely do alot of them pretty much every day.

Personally i think things like pushups, bw chins etc can be done just about everyday, i know they dont tax my body at all and if i did did 3 sets of bw chins a day i would in no way be contributing to overtraining.

Perhaps if you want to increase your reps you could try doing them ED or EOD, just at home on a bar or something. Pushups and bw chins should be a peice of piss for someone moderately strong, doing them often wouldnt affect the rest of your training at all IMO.

[Ali]

I think it is rather simple. The wide grip will work your back and give you a nice V. Close grip with your palms facing you will work your back a little (more rhomboids than anything) but not gonna give you the V.

See this site;

http://www.fitness-equipment.com/chin_ups.htm

I find it hard to do chins when i am out of competition - why - because i weigh more, but start dropping the kgs and i am in there for five sets of 12 - 15. Of course over the years i have been able to do more and more at a greater body weight but it is just like any muscle group, got to work up to lifting the weight. Personally, if i was only doing 6 reps i wouldnt be adding weight, i would get someone to spot me and assist me on the way up and only when i could do three sets of at least 8 -10 reps would i be adding weight. You need the intensity and lots of reps to get that muscle to tear and subsequently grow. Just my thoughts anyway.

[ExpensiveUrine]

Vladimir Zatsiorsky mentions the 'chin up thing' in his book. It links to a relationship between Absolute Strength and Relative Strength.

He mentioned smaller guys doing higher reps while bigger guys were doing lower reps.

Can't say off hand what the relationship is, don't have the book on me. Maybe when I get home.

[ExpensiveUrine]

From 'Science and practice of strength training' (1995) Zatsiorsky writes...

To compare the strength of different people, the strength per kilogram of body weight (termed RELATIVE STRENGTH (kg strength/kg body weight)) is usually calculated. On the other hand, muscular strength, when not related to bodyweight, is called ABSOLUTE STRENGTH (kg).

RELATIVE Strength = ABSOLUTE Strength/Bodyweight.

With an increase in bodyweight, among equally trained athletes of various weight classes, absolute strength increases and relative strength decreases. 

There's a graph in the book that demonstrates this. I'm not going to plot it point by point because I just ate and feel like poop, instead I'll just describe it. Athlete's bodyweight (kg) on the X-Axis, Absolute Strength (kg) on the LEFT Y-Axis, Relative Strength (kg strength/kg bodyweight on the RIGHT Y-Axis. The relationship is as follows... As athlete's bodyweight increases-- Absolute strength goes up as well. As athlete's bodyweight increases -- Relative strength goes down.

For instance, leading international athletes in the 60-kg weight category lift a barbell in the clean and jerk [Second lift performed in Olympic Weightlifting] that is heavier than 180 kg (the world record equals 190.0kg) 

NOTE - It was published in 1995, so the record might not be the same. Same goes for clean and jerk in 105+ class.

Their relative strength in this exercise exceeds 3.0 (180 kg of force/60 kg of bodyweight = 3.0). The bodyweight of athletes in the super heavy weight division, on the other hand, must be above 110 kg and is typically 130 to 140 kg. If the best athletes of this weight class had a relative strength of 3.0 kg of force per kilogram of bodyweight, they would lift approximately 400 kg in the clean and jerk. In reality, the world record in this weight class is about 270 kg.

Because of their great relative strength, athletes of small body dimensions have an advantage in lifting their own bodies. Elite wrestlers of light weight classes can usually perform more than 30 pull-ups on a horizontal bar; for athletes in the super heavy weight category, 10 pull-ups is an excellent achievement..

[Pseudonym]

I like this reason of yours, EU. It's good for my self esteem.

The other reason that often gets mentioned in these sorts of conversations is torque. But rather than sidetrack this thread, I'll create a new one here.