Ketogenic diet

[Varven]

How many of you have used a ketogenic diet?

What effect did it have on you?

And at what stage were you? i.e. at 15% bf and needed to get to 7% ?

Look forward to your opinions/experiences/ideas.

[laurasaur]

me but it was more for "health" benefits ie treating pcos... and i don't have the willpower to stick to it.

more recently yeah ... imo it is very hard to stay in keto because I am so slack at preparing my food and making good choices. But I plan on doing another 2 week stint of keto starting tomorrow... kind of like the atkins induction except 30g of carbs a day.

The first 3 days I am a mean mean bitch, emotional, needy, grumpy, tired, moody, headachy lol... then I feel awesome

[nate225]

The first 3 days I am a mean mean bitch, emotional, needy, grumpy, tired, moody, headachy lol... then I feel awesome

So just the usual for a woman huh?!!! :pfft: Just kidding Laura!

I used to get a wicked ketone smell coming off my breath when doing morning cardio when dieting. I remember often staggering back through the streets of wellington at 6.30 a.m looking like I was walking home from an all night drinking session! The brain was definately fuzzy.

Lucky nowdays its hard to get the same effect from my 5000 kcal diet!!!

Do you get this effect all day long Laura?? Mustn't be very sharp for the body long term!

Nate

[laurasaur]

brain definately gets the fuzz a bit more than usual. But it definately improves after about a week...you get used to it i think

[Varven]

Laura,

From what I understand it often takes up to 2 weeks for ketones to even saturate the blood system.

The first 1 - 2 weeks is the hardest with brain fuzz.

If you are on a typical high calorie bb diet, I have heard hunger is not an issue.

Yes nto cheating is very hard.

Also, did u have a re-feed day when you were on it?

[witchazel]

Varven, Have you seen this...

http://stronglifts.com/10-reasons-you-s ... olic-diet/

If you go through the different pages and read some of the blogs you get a fair idea how people react to the diets..

I have been reading a figure competitors blog who is on this and she seems to manage great for just over a week then totally crashes out and inhales carbs for a day..

I did a very similar diet for 2 weeks, the first 4 days are bad and day 3 is a total bitch but then I found I was fine after that and cruised through the 2nd week, I think you MUST have refeed after 4 days but with fat rather than carbs, you do get fuzzy the first few days, and with 0-30gms of carbs you just run out of strength by day 4.

I now use it as a four day clean up of carbs in my system, and find it is great.

[Optimass]

I did ketogenic for 12 weeks in preparation for the 1997 INBA South Pacifics. It was the only time I have ever dropped my bodyfat under 4% .... I pretty much felt like shit but you kind of learn to mentally shut it out.

In those days it was probably one of the more common trends of diet pre contest. I knew a number of top female athletes that had trouble re initiating carbs into their off season and had side effects like hair loss, depression etc.

I works but its not a fun way to drop the weight... and even though I was extremely lean I came second as I was flat like a pancake. Dropped 22kg to 85kg for that one - in 12 weeks.

[Flex]

Way back last century I used to do keto's every summer. The most sustainable and probably effective was the Body Opus by Dan Duchaine. This involves 5 days very low carb, with 3 weights sessions including a depletion workout on the 5th day, 2-3 low intensity cardio sessions, and then 48 hour carb up with 3 hourly feedings (so you have to wake up every 3 hours).

The best thing about it is that it's all very structured as far as training, diet and supplements goes so you just follow the plan for as long as you need to, and it's designed to limit muscle loss and perhaps gain muscle if you do it right.

I think the longest I followed it for was around 8 weeks, the last couple of times I did it I actually managed to gain a bit of lean mass whilst dropping bodyfat. It isn't really designed for fatties as you need to be less than 15% and have a good LBM to get the best results.

As with any keto diet you need to use thermos/stims to keep yourself going - the ECA stack is best, unfortunately now not easy to get. Protein sparing supps like HMB, methoxy, ecdysterone, and T boosters will help with muscle maintenance and strength. You also need to use potassium and magnesium supps otherwise you can get cramps, muscle spasms, the odd heart attack etc

The other ones I followed were the TNation ones - Velocity and Fat Fast. These worked well too but were harder to stick to and are only designed to be used for up to maybe 4 weeks, whereas the Opus you can stay on for as long as you want and is easier to maintain (other than the aspect of maintaining 3 hourly feeds on the weekend).

There is an evolution of the BodyOpus floating around the net somewhere which is supposed to be more effective, however I never tried it to compare.

I wouldn't recommend the Atkins diet as it's crapola for everyone but the average coach potato. And whatever someone tries to tell you, you can't eat McD's burgers without the bun, or KFC, during a low carb diet.

[Varven]

Thanks for the feedback.

I think its going to be too hard for me to maintain a diet like that with my work commitments.. may go way of the calorie controlled approach..

[laurasaur]

Thanks for the feedback.

I think its going to be too hard for me to maintain a diet like that with my work commitments.. may go way of the calorie controlled approach..

Hmm I don't neccesarily think this kind of diet is harder to do in that regard, you still have to prepare your food as you would if you were restricting calories, you just have to do more specific foods etc and be very aware. I don't think work commitments should be a reason to get out of this type of diet unless they are hardout?

[jesses]

just been reading all your posts, just wondering what is a ketogenic diet? I googled it and all I found was thats its used to treat ppl with epilepsy.

[Flex]

Thanks for the feedback.

I think its going to be too hard for me to maintain a diet like that with my work commitments.. may go way of the calorie controlled approach..

Some Keto diets are probably less hassle than reduced cal diets - all you have to do is cut out carbs, eat tonnes of protein and good fats. There's no need to worry about what kinds of carbs you're putting in, Glycemic/Insulin response, food timing etc and much easier to regulate and measure your calorie intake.

As long as you dose yourself up with caffeine or thermo's you'll be sweet for keeping up energy at work, and all you need to eat is eggs, tuna and mayonnaise, and protein shakes with flaxseed oil. Yummy.

just been reading all your posts, just wondering what is a ketogenic diet? I googled it and all I found was thats its used to treat ppl with epilepsy.

Your google must be broken if all you found was one thing about ketogenic diet. I'd get that looked at. Or perhaps look past the first page and try the other 307,000 results.

[jesses]

just been reading all your posts, just wondering what is a ketogenic diet? I googled it and all I found was thats its used to treat ppl with epilepsy.

Your google must be broken if all you found was one thing about ketogenic diet. I'd get that looked at. Or perhaps look past the first page and try the other 307,000 results.

[two_phat]

I did ketogenic for 12 weeks in preparation for the 1997 INBA South Pacifics. It was the only time I have ever dropped my bodyfat under 4% .... I pretty much felt like shit but you kind of learn to mentally shut it out.

4% :shock: :shock:

Thats pretty crazy - what was that like? (I mean mentally, emotionally, physically, how tough did you find it?)

[Optimass]

I did ketogenic for 12 weeks in preparation for the 1997 INBA South Pacifics. It was the only time I have ever dropped my bodyfat under 4% .... I pretty much felt like shit but you kind of learn to mentally shut it out.

4% :shock: :shock:

Thats pretty crazy - what was that like? (I mean mentally, emotionally, physically, how tough did you find it?)

pretty harsh - was an estimate as calipers were not picking up much. (Keep in mind they don't measure internal fats so literally woulldn't have been that low). 2 days before the show I passed out trying to stand up out of a chair after eating a grilled chicken breast and a brocolli head. Couldn't concentrate, would forget things like food in oven, had to set my watch to remind me to eat etc.... 2 days after the show I had put on 8kg and looked fucken excellent .... :?

My skin is very fair so was see through ... and when I moved it looked like each fibre was being electrified.

I dehydrated 4 days on the recommendation of someone that seemed to know what they were talking about .... was prior to my PT and nutritional studies. Nearly killed me. My brother (7 years older) used to do it the same way (old school) and I remember one year he got nmeumonia and had to take 3 months of work.

[Optimass]

in those days we didn't have forums like this so you inherited a lot mixed up information and had to experiment with what was good and what wasn't. Needless to say all the experimentation paid of when I started consulting as a PT.

[1day]

any more feed back on this subject as me and sg are lookin into it for our comp in sept. few scary side effects to consider i guess but think it worth it as it can give such great results :?

[Monopoly Man]

What supps would you recommend while in Ketosis Optimass, Flex?

I was thinking a Multi vitamin, Thermo like Animal cuts and a protein with added Glutamine. My Nitric Oxide has 7g of carbs per serve so should I forget using that???

Any personal experience advise on Keto would be gladly appreciated :pray: No more recycled stuff from the web :?

[laurasaur]

You need a really, really top quality multi.

[Optimass]

What supps would you recommend while in Ketosis Optimass, Flex?

I was thinking a Multi vitamin, Thermo like Animal cuts and a protein with added Glutamine. My Nitric Oxide has 7g of carbs per serve so should I forget using that???

Any personal experience advise on Keto would be gladly appreciated :pray: No more recycled stuff from the web :?

Yup Multi vitamin is something I would recomend. You can only have trace carbs if that - no sugar at all.

The reason why the diet works so well is because there is no glucose going in, your insulin level pretty much flat lines. After a meal of carbs it spikes up and peaks then come down as the glucose runs out. Its during the peaks and trophs in between meals that your body will try to store more fat. The feeling of hunger is your body going through withdrawl from running out of glucose - prompting you to eat again. (The higher concentrate sugar the sharper the spike - thats how choclate binging works) and hense the reason why most commercial diets like weight watchers and Jenny Craig now recommend 6 meal plans to their members. (Not unlike a bodybuilding diet - go figure).

If you are doing a cut and still taking in carbs you can maintain an even insulin level by eating low GI carbs more often - the extreme of which would be what Nick Smith is doing in his journal. Because he is eating carbs every hour but in small qty his insulin variation is limited which reduces the opportunity to store fat and ensures his metabolic rate stays up.

Thats about as simple as you can explain it. IMO - keto works well if you have to do a quick drop to meet a weight grade/ or your sponsor books you for a guest showing in two weeks time/ or you using a few other "supplements" that will cause you to hold your size anyway - but for long term natural results you are probably better regulating your caloric intake and coming down slowly.

The longer you are at a body weight the more normal your body will feel at that weight / bf% - and it will be easier to maintain.

I lost 22kg in 14 weeks on the keto once - bodyfat was below 6% (hard to measure) but I was flat and smooth. The second time I did the diet the weight came away quicker but again I was not happy with the compromise in size. Then I experimented a bit with water loading and carb loading around and perodisation in my training to come up with a better result. Since then I have had a number of clients that have switched to the load and carb way with much better results. (But I personally haven't been able to drop as low as I did on the keto - but I am very endomorphic as rule and i am in a constant state of learning). So there are pros and cons - just need to find out what works for you.

[musclenz]

any more feed back on this subject as me and sg are lookin into it for our comp in sept. few scary side effects to consider i guess but think it worth it as it can give such great results :?

Check with BigMD. He's King of Keto in his pre comp prep. Maybe he will chime in.

[virgo1978]

I love being on a keto diet (I am doing it at the moment) my appetite stays constant without any spikes which cause cravings for sugary foods.

My mood is much better and I feel more energetic.

You just have to understand that your muscles look flat while you are in this state, and you probably wont look as good as you normally would when your muscles are full.

But once you carb up, you blow up like a beautiful balloon. :wink:

I started this diet with Dave Palumbo a couple of years ago. With the girls he doesn’t use a ‘Carb up’ pre contest but swears by ‘fat loading’ (nuts, peanut butter).

I have tried fat loading and it didn’t work for me, that’s not to say it doesn’t work though.

[Monopoly Man]

Thanks for that Optimass. Is it also true that natural competitors trying to foot it with the big boys should stay away from Keto cause you can lose too much muscle mass on it unless you're anabolic?

I knew it sounded too good to be true :cry:

[Optimass]

Thanks for that Optimass. Is it also true that natural competitors trying to foot it with the big boys should stay away from Keto cause you can lose too much muscle mass on it unless you're anabolic?

I knew it sounded too good to be true :cry:

Not nessisarily - if you look at how Dan Hibbs looked at Nationals last year - I think he has raised the bar from a natural stand point. I have no idea how he preped for that show but you can guarantee he worked very hard to come in like that - and take the overall. He may have used the Keto.

And just to be clear - you would lose size but not ness muscle. the more Glycogen stored in muscle = size on stage. Like Vigro says "you blow up like a beautiful balloon" ... (I quite like the we you worded that V ) - The issue for most natural guys coming in to show off keto is when to start the load > as it can be hit or miss each time you do it until you find the right time and type of carb your body responds to.

From memory I carbed up 2 days out last time using dried kumara/ pineapple and on the day cremed rice. It was good but I may be keen to stretch it out further to 4 days if I was going to keto it. I had a mate that won his class and carbed up on Big Macs :nod: .... you'll know if you under shot the load because you'll look shit hot a day to two days after the show when you've had a few beers and had a good binge :nod: