Really how hepatoxic are orals?

[musclenz]

Just noted a bit of information coming through on Dbol only cycles & using orals. For those that are thinking of running an oral only cycle, & yes they do work but not as effective as injectables, here is an article run on BB.com that shows some interesting results on how toxic orals are. Personally, I would suggest running orals for longer periods 8-10 weeks but at much lower doses 20-25mg ED. A lot of the sides from orals are avoided at this dose. PCT is required at the end of the cycle.

By: Roy Harper

We all know that the alpha alkylated steroids are hepatotoxic, right... But, is there actually any truth to this? We've been told for years that if you take 17 alpha-alkylated steroids, you will eventually run into liver problems. Never combine 17 aa's, never go beyond 50mg day, never go longer than 4 weeks, etc. All of this is crap! As I we walk you through some studies, today, you'll see 17 alpha-alkylated steroids can be hepatotoxic but not to the degree you would think.

To make a steroid hepatotoxic, you need only a small change to a steroid molecule; A strong bond that cannot readily be down broken by enzymes in the liver. This may be a bond at the 17th position, or even at the 1st position (as in methenolone or proviron). Because the liver cannot easily break the steroid down before it is released in to the blood stream, this also results in the steroid to becoming more orally bio-available.

We can see that the liver has to work harder to break down these steroids. Enzymes in the blood and tissue easily metabolize other steroids such as Testosterone. Commonly, this increase in liver activity has been viewed as a harmful process, but as you will see, this increase is, in and of itself, irrelevant. The liver is THE filter of the human body -- it can figure out what to do with just about anything. The only real problem comes in when one keeps their liver at full blast for long periods of time.

Let's look at some studies showing the hepatotoxicity of steroids. Here's one of my favorites, a study published in 1979[1]. Essentially, researches did a study of deaths caused by hepatic angiosarcoma (a malignant tumor of vascular tissue in the liver) between 1964 and 1974. Researchers found 131 reported cases of death from hepatic angiosarcoma. Out of the 131 cases, 3.1% (4 cases) were reported to be at all related to the use of androgenic-anabolic steroids. Keep in mind that these 4 people could have liver complications before any steroids were used, aka a genetic disposition. In fact there is no proof, in this study at least, that the anabolic-androgenic steroids even caused the hepatic angiosarcoma.

This is the classic case of associating a cause with an effect, without any evidence, aside from both existing. Furthermore, based on the above numbers, there are only 0.4 cases of hepatic angiosarcoma reported each year, by those using AAS. Now consider the number of people on steroids at this time. Now factor in all the people that don't know their ass from a hole in the ground when it comes to using AAS, properly. Clearly, this is very week evidence. Lastly there has not been a real increase in hepatic angiosarcoma since the early seventies. Meanwhile, there has been a huge, almost exponential, increase in steroid use during this period.

Another study, that somewhat supports the previous hepatotoxicity case, showed the possibilities of hepatic adenomas(cysts in the liver) caused by androgenic-anabolic steroids[2]. In this study, a Japanese girl was found to have multiple liver lesions after the use of the drug oxymetholone (aka Anadrol).

Most everyone "knows" that Anadrol is linked with liver problems, but a closer inspection into this study shows more. Apparently, this girl, starting at the age of 14, was diagnosed with aplastic anemia. She was prescribed oxymetholone at 30mg per day. This continued for 6 years until the lesions first appeared. Assuming that the girl was most likely around 100 lbs., this was a pretty heavy dosage. If you extrapolated this data out to a 200 - 250lbs. male, that would be taking approximately 60 - 90mg of anadrol per day for 6 years. Ouch!

The researchers also stated that there were only 17 other cases of hepatic adenomas, found in English literature between 1975 and 1998. They failed to mention the causes of these 17 cases, but there is no reason to believe they were all using 17-AA androgens and 17 is certainly miniscule compared to the number of people who have used them. The authors' finish off the study by saying the following: "This report may be helpful in identifying the population who is at risk of developing hepatic sex hormone-related tumors." So remember, if you're a small 14-year-old girl taking 30mg of Anadrol per day for 6 years, you may be at risk!

Let's move on to some more useful studies. Take for example a 1995 study that showed the toxic effects of anabolic-androgenic steroids in primary rat hepatic cell cultures[3]. In this study the researchers used the following drugs and dosages:

The Study

Steroid

1x10^-8M

1x10^-6M

1x10^-4M

19-nortestosterone

0.002744mg

0.2744mg

27.44mg

Fluoxymesterone

0.003365mg

0.3365mg

33.65mg

Testosterone cypionate

0.004126mg

0.4126mg

41.26mg

Stanozolol

0.003285mg

0.3285mg

32.85mg

Danazol

N/A

N/A

N/A

Oxymetholone

0.003325mg

0.3325mg

33.25mg

Testosterone

0.002884mg

0.2884mg

28.84mg

Estradiol

0.0027424mg

0.2724mg

27.24mg

Methyltestosterone

0.003024mg

0.3024mg

30.24mg

As proof of the hepatoxicity they used Lactate dehydrogenase release, neutral red retention, and glutathione depletion to determine plasma membrane damage, cell viability, and possible oxidative injury, respectively.

What they showed was that the 17 alpha-alkylated steroids, methyltestosterone, stanozolol and oxymetholone, significantly increased Lactate dehydrogenase release and decreased neutral red retention at the 1x10^-4M dosage for 24h. Both methyltestosterone and oxymetholone also showed depleted glutathione at the 1x10^-4M dosage after 2h, 6h and 8h treatments. In other words they increased liver activity. You may also note that the other, non-alkylated steroids showed no significant difference in any levels. All in all this not only shows that 17 alpha-alkylated steroids are directly "hepatotoxic", but also non-alkylated steroids are note hepatotoxic at all. But is this a real measure of hepatotoxicity? There is yet to be any correlation between the increase of the above-mentioned measurement and "hepatotoxicity". Obviously, high dosages of the 17 alpha-alkylated steroids are potentially dangerous, but upon closer inspection, the study reveals more.

Take a look, the researchers took cell cultures from the liversse of 60-day-old Sprague-Dawley rats. Not only are rat livers much smaller than human livers, but these were merely cultures. Furthermore, it was the 1x10^-4M concentrations that caused the most changes, but these are approximately 1 to a 1/3 of a full, daily human dosage -- at least for the 17 alpha-alkylated steroids. Even at the 1x10^-6M concentration, there were no significant changes observed. It's apparent that the levels of 17 alpha-alkylated steroids used were potentially toxic, but for a human to take the same amount would be insane. I'm guessing this could translate to maybe 4 grams every 24 hours or 28 grams a week if not more.

What is common so far is we can only prove that any steroid, that is believed to be hepatotoxic, only increases liver activity. I'll say it again, where is the correlation to hepatotoxicity? We know that if the liver is running at 100% for long periods this may cause complications, but this is akin to any other chemical, which is metabolized by the liver. Ever noticed that liver cancer due to alcoholism takes decades of constant alcohol abuse? It's apparent that the possibility for hepatotoxicity is there, but for the smart steroid user this is nearly an impossible task.

Another study done in 1999, attempted to show the acute and chronic effects of stanozolol on the liver[4]. In acute treatments of stanozolol, dosages not mentioned, both cytochrome P456 and b5 (microsomal enzymes) levels dropped after 48 hours, and then at 72 hours, levels significant increased. On the other hand, with chronic treatments, time or dosage not mentioned, these microsomal enzymes showed a decrease in levels. Researchers showed that both acute and chronic treatments resulted in "slight to moderate inflammatory or degenerative lesions in centrilobular hepatocytes", but the authors did not note true hepatotoxicity.

How about we look at the other side of the story, the good studies. For instance, in a 1999 study, which looked at the effects of an 8-week cycle of 17 alpha-alkylated steroids[5]. The researchers used fluoxymesterone, methylandrostanolone, or stanozolol on rats at 2mg/kg-body weight, five times a week for 8 weeks. That's 182mg per dosage, for a 200lb man, or 910mg per week. Half of the rats were sedentary and the other were trained on a treadmill.

Levels of NADH-cytochrome c reductase, succinate cytochrome c reductase, and cytochrome oxidase (showing liver activity), increased in the steroid-administered rats, while citrate synthase showed no change. Comparatively, in vitro, the "cytochrome oxidase and citrate synthase activities were insensitive to the AAS, whereas NADH-cytochrome c reductase and succinate cytochrome c reductase activities were partly inhibited."

Furthermore, in vivo, each rat had liver enzyme levels that were within normal range. From this, the researchers determined that the steroid-administered rats, trained or sedentary, did not show "...classical serum indicators of hepatic function". Extrapolating this, 910mg a week for 8 weeks could potentially have little to no effect on the liver in humans.

As for human studies, in 1999 researchers tried to prove that the hepatotoxicity of steroids is overstated[6]. In this study, 15 of the participants were bodybuilders using self-administered steroid dosages and 10 were non-steroid bodybuilders. Serum data was compared to 49 patients with viral hepatitis, and 592 exercising and non-exercising medical students.

All of the bodybuilders showed increases in aspartate aminotransferase (AST), alanine aminotransferase (ALT) and creatine kinase (CK) while gamma-glutamyltranspeptidase (GGT) levels were in the normal range. In comparison, hepatitis patients showed increased ALT, AST, and GGT levels while the control exercising medical students showed increased CK levels. From this, the researchers suggested that it is the correlation between AST, ALT and GGT that shows true liver dysfunction. Keep in mind, we can only guess that the 15 steroid users were using 17 alpha-alkylated steroids, and we do not know what the dosages that were used., but common sense tells us the results are likely relevant.

Last but not least, a simple study done in 1996, showed the long term benefits after taking a 3 month break from steroids[7]. 16 bodybuilders using steroids were compared to 12 bodybuilders that were not. After a three-month drug withdrawal, the researchers showed that levels of liver enzymes, types not mentioned, returned to the same as the non users. Again the dosages are left to the reader's imagination and we can only guess that the 16 steroid users were using 17 alpha-alkylated steroids.

So What Can We Conclude From All Of This?

First off, 17 alpha-alkylated steroids are hepatotoxic in high dosages taken for a long time. On the other hand, short cycles and small dosages appear to be perfectly safe. I suggest that maximum dosages should be 500mg to 900mg per day. They should be cycled for perhaps 8 weeks at a time, and if needed a 3-month break from them should be used. Using the above-mentioned techniques, your liver can be healthy for a long time. Simply put, the hysteria surrounding "hepatoxic" steroids, is based mainly on folk lore.

This article appears courtesy of http://www.mindandmuscle.net

References:

[1] Lancet 1979 Nov 24;2(8152):1120-3, Hepatic angiosarcoma associated with androgenic-anabolic steroids. Falk H, Thomas LB, Popper H, Ishak KG.

[2] J Gastroenterol 2000;35(7):557-62, Multiple hepatic adenomas caused by long-term administration of androgenic steroids for aplastic anemia in association with familial adenomatous polyposis. Nakao A, Sakagami K, Nakata Y, Komazawa K, Amimoto T, Nakashima K, Isozaki H, Takakura N, Tanaka N.

[3] J Pharmacol Toxicol Methods 1995 Aug;33(4):187-95, Toxic effects of anabolic-androgenic steroids in primary rat hepatic cell cultures. Welder AA, Robertson JW, Melchert RB.

[4] Arch Toxicol 1999 Nov;73(8-9):465-72, Evaluation of acute and chronic hepatotoxic effects exerted by anabolic-androgenic steroid stanozolol in adult male rats. Boada LD, Zumbado M, Torres S, Lopez A, Diaz-Chico BN, Cabrera JJ, Luzardo OP.

[5] Med Sci Sports Exerc. 1999 Feb;31(2):243-50, Rat liver lysosomal and mitochondrial activities are modified by anabolic-androgenic steroids. Molano F, Saborido A, Delgado J, Moran M, Megias A.

[6] Clin J Sport Med 1999 Jan;9(1):34-9, Anabolic steroid-induced hepatotoxicity: is it overstated? Dickerman RD, Pertusi RM, Zachariah NY, Dufour DR, McConathy WJ.

[7] Int J Sports Med 1996 Aug;17(6):429-33, Body composition, cardiovascular risk factors and liver function in long-term androgenic-anabolic steroids using bodybuilders three months after drug withdrawal. Hartgens F, Kuipers H, Wijnen JA, Keizer HA.

Roy Harper

[auck_builder]

hmmm good post, should answer that guys question in the other topic

[Hennie]

Interesting read by "DR.D" the guy who supposedly got Superdrol on the market for Anabolic Xtreme.

Don't know anyone that tried this, just remember reading in a post that Patrick Arnold actually agreed this has value when the two argued about some stuff. :?

A lot of guys have been asking me to clarify my method on this cycling technique, so here's a good explanation if you're interested in trying this. It can generally be applied to any steroidal compound.

What is "pulse" cycling? Pulsing is a method of dosing a product designed to intentionally avoid potential long term side effects such as HPTA suppression and liver damage. This technique is usually applied as a means of toxicity control when potent corticoids are used on children requiring long term therapy. However, this method can be applied to anyone using any oral steroid with great success and significantly reduced side effects. With pulsing, the serious long term side effects of chronic oral treatment are avoided and short term side effect like acne and mineral retention are much milder that usual. This allows for higher doses to be used since the dosing is less frequent. For example, if you would normally take a product at 30 mg/day, that equals a total intake of 210 mg/week. While pulsing, you might typically take 40 mg on work out days only, 3 times per week. That only comes out to 120 mg/week total! This provides the needed benefits of the product at the most crucial times, which are just before and just after a work out, and offers a means of avoiding the suppression of endogenous steroid production one would expect on a standard, daily dosing cycle. In other words, you can often pulse a compound for 6-8 weeks before you realistically need to start thinking about a conventional post cycle therapy. After a 4 week pulsing cycle, post cycle therapy should not even be required in most cases!

Basically, if you dose every day (ED) in perfectly spaced doses, you will achieve 100% effect, 100% short term side effects, and 100% long term side effects. If you dose every other day (EOD) like the pulse protocol, you still get about 60% effect and 75% short term sides, but only about 40% of the long term sides. That's not a bad trade off and very economical on the body and as well as the wallet! Of course, if you would have gained 10 pounds on a standard 1 month cycle, you will only gain about 6 pounds per month pulsing, but it also means you can do this for twice as long as a standard cycle. That equals about 2 months of worry free dosing, so the net effect is a gain of about 12 pounds over 2 months instead of 10 pounds over 1 month. This structure offers fewer sides and a milder post cycle therapy requirement (if even needed at all) plus the slower gains tend to have a better residual that is more likely to be permanent compared to faster gains. It's a great long term strategy for vets wanting to run 12 weeks, and good for new users too looking to run fast and clean 1 month cycles with no post cycle therapy needed later.

There are three common approaches to pulsing:

1) EOD dosing, so 3-4 times per week.

2) 2 days on / 2 days off

3) 2 weeks on / 2 weeks off (some guys do this and think it's great, I don't practice it but it looks exceptionally safe at least)

Depending on your workout schedule, I would use one of these options for optimal pulsing efficiency. Doses can usually be high (40-60 mg instead of 10-30 mg) but take them close together preferably before 6 pm. It's not crucial you take the last dose before 6 pm, but the earlier the better for avoiding shut down. Take half of the total dose pre work out and half post work out instead of spread out evenly over the whole day like a conventional cycle. If an odd dose is to be used, like 30 mg, take the majority pre work out (so 20 mg pre/10 mg post). However, when pulsing non methylated compounds or fast acting ethers, take the greater dose post work out instead of pre work out. When pulsing, dose at least 3 times per week but not more than 4 times to insure optimal results. 5 doses per week is pushing it and suppression will eventually ensue. If this is attempted, "holidays" of complete non use for up to a week per month may be required to discourage suppression. I do not recommend more than 4.5 doses per week and that is for advanced level only!

Also important to remember is nutrition. Have a good, high carb/calorie post work out meal or shake, and ingest sufficient protein especially on the off days. Off days are also a good time to take a cortisol antagonist or even just low dose DHEA (25-50 mg) if you're a slow healer or hard gainer especially. Cortisol peaks in the morning and again in the mid afternoon so dose at those 2 times minimum. Although pulsing is a great way to avoid suppression, if you're extra sensitive to shut down or using a very suppressive compound, an herbal testosterone booster can be used on the off nights or even included everyday. In fact, running test boosters as the core of your cycle and pulsing a methyl just to augment that is possibly one of the best methods you could employ if not using injectable testosterone. Also, avoid the use of SERMs with long half lives when pulsing. An aromatase inhibitor (AI) or test booster will further punctuate the positive, hormonal "bounce back" effect of pulsing. This bounce back phenomenon is an effect that is often noted when pulsing, so don't be alarmed if your testicular size increases dramatically on the off days. It is not uncommon for testicular volume and testosterone levels to increase above baseline, especially on consecutive off days during the pulse or after the cycle is over. This is like a built in post cycle therapy effect and if you're pulsing properly, you should experiences this to some degree. In pulsing, it is also important to remember that the smaller number of dose exposures means faster liver clearance. Normal safety ancillaries like healthy oils and lipid supplements are always advised on cycle and off, but be modest with liver protectants like Milk Thistle. They are generally counter productive and therefore not suggested when pulsing, except in conjunction with very potent or toxic compounds. If you elect to use liver protectants anyway, I would reserve them for off days only or take them no earlier than 6 hrs after your final dose of anabolics. Cycle safe!

Example of a 3x/wk pulse M,W,F:

Week-Dose(mg)

1 (10,20,30)

2 30

3 30-40

4 30-40

5 30-50

6 30-50

7 30-60

8 30-60

Example of a 4x/wk pulse Sat, Sun, Wed, Thur:

Week-Dose(mg)

1 (10,20,30,30)

2 30

3 30-40

4 30-40

5 30-50

6 30-50

[Hennie]

Interesting read by "DR.D" the guy who supposedly got Superdrol on the market for Anabolic Xtreme.

Don't know anyone that tried this, just remember reading in a post where Patrick Arnold actually agreed this has value when the two guys argued about some stuff. :?

A lot of guys have been asking me to clarify my method on this cycling technique, so here's a good explanation if you're interested in trying this. It can generally be applied to any steroidal compound.

What is "pulse" cycling? Pulsing is a method of dosing a product designed to intentionally avoid potential long term side effects such as HPTA suppression and liver damage. This technique is usually applied as a means of toxicity control when potent corticoids are used on children requiring long term therapy. However, this method can be applied to anyone using any oral steroid with great success and significantly reduced side effects. With pulsing, the serious long term side effects of chronic oral treatment are avoided and short term side effect like acne and mineral retention are much milder that usual. This allows for higher doses to be used since the dosing is less frequent. For example, if you would normally take a product at 30 mg/day, that equals a total intake of 210 mg/week. While pulsing, you might typically take 40 mg on work out days only, 3 times per week. That only comes out to 120 mg/week total! This provides the needed benefits of the product at the most crucial times, which are just before and just after a work out, and offers a means of avoiding the suppression of endogenous steroid production one would expect on a standard, daily dosing cycle. In other words, you can often pulse a compound for 6-8 weeks before you realistically need to start thinking about a conventional post cycle therapy. After a 4 week pulsing cycle, post cycle therapy should not even be required in most cases!

Basically, if you dose every day (ED) in perfectly spaced doses, you will achieve 100% effect, 100% short term side effects, and 100% long term side effects. If you dose every other day (EOD) like the pulse protocol, you still get about 60% effect and 75% short term sides, but only about 40% of the long term sides. That's not a bad trade off and very economical on the body and as well as the wallet! Of course, if you would have gained 10 pounds on a standard 1 month cycle, you will only gain about 6 pounds per month pulsing, but it also means you can do this for twice as long as a standard cycle. That equals about 2 months of worry free dosing, so the net effect is a gain of about 12 pounds over 2 months instead of 10 pounds over 1 month. This structure offers fewer sides and a milder post cycle therapy requirement (if even needed at all) plus the slower gains tend to have a better residual that is more likely to be permanent compared to faster gains. It's a great long term strategy for vets wanting to run 12 weeks, and good for new users too looking to run fast and clean 1 month cycles with no post cycle therapy needed later.

There are three common approaches to pulsing:

1) EOD dosing, so 3-4 times per week.

2) 2 days on / 2 days off

3) 2 weeks on / 2 weeks off (some guys do this and think it's great, I don't practice it but it looks exceptionally safe at least)

Depending on your workout schedule, I would use one of these options for optimal pulsing efficiency. Doses can usually be high (40-60 mg instead of 10-30 mg) but take them close together preferably before 6 pm. It's not crucial you take the last dose before 6 pm, but the earlier the better for avoiding shut down. Take half of the total dose pre work out and half post work out instead of spread out evenly over the whole day like a conventional cycle. If an odd dose is to be used, like 30 mg, take the majority pre work out (so 20 mg pre/10 mg post). However, when pulsing non methylated compounds or fast acting ethers, take the greater dose post work out instead of pre work out. When pulsing, dose at least 3 times per week but not more than 4 times to insure optimal results. 5 doses per week is pushing it and suppression will eventually ensue. If this is attempted, "holidays" of complete non use for up to a week per month may be required to discourage suppression. I do not recommend more than 4.5 doses per week and that is for advanced level only!

Also important to remember is nutrition. Have a good, high carb/calorie post work out meal or shake, and ingest sufficient protein especially on the off days. Off days are also a good time to take a cortisol antagonist or even just low dose DHEA (25-50 mg) if you're a slow healer or hard gainer especially. Cortisol peaks in the morning and again in the mid afternoon so dose at those 2 times minimum. Although pulsing is a great way to avoid suppression, if you're extra sensitive to shut down or using a very suppressive compound, an herbal testosterone booster can be used on the off nights or even included everyday. In fact, running test boosters as the core of your cycle and pulsing a methyl just to augment that is possibly one of the best methods you could employ if not using injectable testosterone. Also, avoid the use of SERMs with long half lives when pulsing. An aromatase inhibitor (AI) or test booster will further punctuate the positive, hormonal "bounce back" effect of pulsing. This bounce back phenomenon is an effect that is often noted when pulsing, so don't be alarmed if your testicular size increases dramatically on the off days. It is not uncommon for testicular volume and testosterone levels to increase above baseline, especially on consecutive off days during the pulse or after the cycle is over. This is like a built in post cycle therapy effect and if you're pulsing properly, you should experiences this to some degree. In pulsing, it is also important to remember that the smaller number of dose exposures means faster liver clearance. Normal safety ancillaries like healthy oils and lipid supplements are always advised on cycle and off, but be modest with liver protectants like Milk Thistle. They are generally counter productive and therefore not suggested when pulsing, except in conjunction with very potent or toxic compounds. If you elect to use liver protectants anyway, I would reserve them for off days only or take them no earlier than 6 hrs after your final dose of anabolics. Cycle safe!

Example of a 3x/wk pulse M,W,F:

Week-Dose(mg)

1 (10,20,30)

2 30

3 30-40

4 30-40

5 30-50

6 30-50

7 30-60

8 30-60

Example of a 4x/wk pulse Sat, Sun, Wed, Thur:

Week-Dose(mg)

1 (10,20,30,30)

2 30

3 30-40

4 30-40

5 30-50

6 30-50

[Hennie]

Interesting read by "DR.D" the guy who supposedly got Superdrol on the market for Anabolic Xtreme.

Don't know anyone that tried this, just remember reading in a post where Patrick Arnold actually agreed this has value when the two argued about some stuff. :?

A lot of guys have been asking me to clarify my method on this cycling technique, so here's a good explanation if you're interested in trying this. It can generally be applied to any steroidal compound.

What is "pulse" cycling? Pulsing is a method of dosing a product designed to intentionally avoid potential long term side effects such as HPTA suppression and liver damage. This technique is usually applied as a means of toxicity control when potent corticoids are used on children requiring long term therapy. However, this method can be applied to anyone using any oral steroid with great success and significantly reduced side effects. With pulsing, the serious long term side effects of chronic oral treatment are avoided and short term side effect like acne and mineral retention are much milder that usual. This allows for higher doses to be used since the dosing is less frequent. For example, if you would normally take a product at 30 mg/day, that equals a total intake of 210 mg/week. While pulsing, you might typically take 40 mg on work out days only, 3 times per week. That only comes out to 120 mg/week total! This provides the needed benefits of the product at the most crucial times, which are just before and just after a work out, and offers a means of avoiding the suppression of endogenous steroid production one would expect on a standard, daily dosing cycle. In other words, you can often pulse a compound for 6-8 weeks before you realistically need to start thinking about a conventional post cycle therapy. After a 4 week pulsing cycle, post cycle therapy should not even be required in most cases!

Basically, if you dose every day (ED) in perfectly spaced doses, you will achieve 100% effect, 100% short term side effects, and 100% long term side effects. If you dose every other day (EOD) like the pulse protocol, you still get about 60% effect and 75% short term sides, but only about 40% of the long term sides. That's not a bad trade off and very economical on the body and as well as the wallet! Of course, if you would have gained 10 pounds on a standard 1 month cycle, you will only gain about 6 pounds per month pulsing, but it also means you can do this for twice as long as a standard cycle. That equals about 2 months of worry free dosing, so the net effect is a gain of about 12 pounds over 2 months instead of 10 pounds over 1 month. This structure offers fewer sides and a milder post cycle therapy requirement (if even needed at all) plus the slower gains tend to have a better residual that is more likely to be permanent compared to faster gains. It's a great long term strategy for vets wanting to run 12 weeks, and good for new users too looking to run fast and clean 1 month cycles with no post cycle therapy needed later.

There are three common approaches to pulsing:

1) EOD dosing, so 3-4 times per week.

2) 2 days on / 2 days off

3) 2 weeks on / 2 weeks off (some guys do this and think it's great, I don't practice it but it looks exceptionally safe at least)

Depending on your workout schedule, I would use one of these options for optimal pulsing efficiency. Doses can usually be high (40-60 mg instead of 10-30 mg) but take them close together preferably before 6 pm. It's not crucial you take the last dose before 6 pm, but the earlier the better for avoiding shut down. Take half of the total dose pre work out and half post work out instead of spread out evenly over the whole day like a conventional cycle. If an odd dose is to be used, like 30 mg, take the majority pre work out (so 20 mg pre/10 mg post). However, when pulsing non methylated compounds or fast acting ethers, take the greater dose post work out instead of pre work out. When pulsing, dose at least 3 times per week but not more than 4 times to insure optimal results. 5 doses per week is pushing it and suppression will eventually ensue. If this is attempted, "holidays" of complete non use for up to a week per month may be required to discourage suppression. I do not recommend more than 4.5 doses per week and that is for advanced level only!

Also important to remember is nutrition. Have a good, high carb/calorie post work out meal or shake, and ingest sufficient protein especially on the off days. Off days are also a good time to take a cortisol antagonist or even just low dose DHEA (25-50 mg) if you're a slow healer or hard gainer especially. Cortisol peaks in the morning and again in the mid afternoon so dose at those 2 times minimum. Although pulsing is a great way to avoid suppression, if you're extra sensitive to shut down or using a very suppressive compound, an herbal testosterone booster can be used on the off nights or even included everyday. In fact, running test boosters as the core of your cycle and pulsing a methyl just to augment that is possibly one of the best methods you could employ if not using injectable testosterone. Also, avoid the use of SERMs with long half lives when pulsing. An aromatase inhibitor (AI) or test booster will further punctuate the positive, hormonal "bounce back" effect of pulsing. This bounce back phenomenon is an effect that is often noted when pulsing, so don't be alarmed if your testicular size increases dramatically on the off days. It is not uncommon for testicular volume and testosterone levels to increase above baseline, especially on consecutive off days during the pulse or after the cycle is over. This is like a built in post cycle therapy effect and if you're pulsing properly, you should experiences this to some degree. In pulsing, it is also important to remember that the smaller number of dose exposures means faster liver clearance. Normal safety ancillaries like healthy oils and lipid supplements are always advised on cycle and off, but be modest with liver protectants like Milk Thistle. They are generally counter productive and therefore not suggested when pulsing, except in conjunction with very potent or toxic compounds. If you elect to use liver protectants anyway, I would reserve them for off days only or take them no earlier than 6 hrs after your final dose of anabolics. Cycle safe!

Example of a 3x/wk pulse M,W,F:

Week-Dose(mg)

1 (10,20,30)

2 30

3 30-40

4 30-40

5 30-50

6 30-50

7 30-60

8 30-60

Example of a 4x/wk pulse Sat, Sun, Wed, Thur:

Week-Dose(mg)

1 (10,20,30,30)

2 30

3 30-40

4 30-40

5 30-50

6 30-50

[aaa]

I suggest that maximum dosages should be 500mg to 900mg per day

what :shock:

[musclenz]

I would suggest that you would shut down your HPTA with the doses hes suggesting. I dont know about pulsing. It may have some merit but I prefer the lower dose for longer. Some guys that run orals esp Dbol ramp up & taper down over the 8-10 weeks & report good results using this method. Also I believe that its quite a good way to reduce the crash after a heavy cycle by tapering out on orals. Winny is good for this but Dbol can also be effective.

[musclenz]

I suggest that maximum dosages should be 500mg to 900mg per day

what :shock:

Misprint I would say should be 50 - 90mg ED. You would definately have some liver issues at 900mg & be 180 thai's

[Optimass]

Also I believe that its quite a good way to reduce the crash after a heavy cycle by tapering out on orals.

I agree - Only issue with 10 - 12 weeks however is if your dbol is tampered with (restamped) ensure you know the source has altered it config - as I know someone currently recovering from liver damage as a result of using a dodge product.

[musclenz]

Also I believe that its quite a good way to reduce the crash after a heavy cycle by tapering out on orals.

I agree - Only issue with 10 - 12 weeks however is if your dbol is tampered with (restamped) ensure you know the source has altered it config - as I know someone currently recovering from liver damage as a result of using a dodge product.

Yeah there is some crap floating around & some fakes as well. I'm tempted to name & pic them but I expect it is not quite within the rules. Just pisses me off to see people getting damaged & ripped off by unscrupulous sources.

[2guns]

Also I believe that its quite a good way to reduce the crash after a heavy cycle by tapering out on orals.

I agree - Only issue with 10 - 12 weeks however is if your dbol is tampered with (restamped) ensure you know the source has altered it config - as I know someone currently recovering from liver damage as a result of using a dodge product.

Yeah there is some crap floating around & some fakes as well. I'm tempted to name & pic them but I expect it is not quite within the rules. Just pisses me off to see people getting damaged & ripped off by unscrupulous sources.

go for it.... u can post up pics of products u believe to be fake/underdosed aqs long as u dont name the source.

go on get sum balls and do it! lol

[Optimass]

go for it.... u can post up pics of products u believe to be fake/underdosed aqs long as u dont name the source.

go on get sum balls and do it! lol

I actually think this would be a pretty good forum to do it in - but 2guns is right no names. I guess if you holding the product you can make your own call on whether to buy it or not.

Would any of the moderators care to comment?

[musclenz]

On the subject of fake Dbol. Dont buy this. Its around at the moment. Might be radicaly underdosed but did nothing at 100mg ed.

[2guns]

musclenz... i have been using that at 50mg ED and that all i was using, have been taking it inbetween 2 short cycles.

have just got more test and sum winny and the dbols have now run out

i think it did the job for myself.. i used at 50mg ED for 1st and 4th week and 100mg ED for week 2 and 3.

i was still progressing on it.

thats just my opinion/exp of it tho..

[xmen007]

Awesome post, definitely answers alot of questions.

[musclenz]

musclenz... i have been using that at 50mg ED and that all i was using, have been taking it inbetween 2 short cycles.

have just got more test and sum winny and the dbols have now run out

i think it did the job for myself.. i used at 50mg ED for 1st and 4th week and 100mg ED for week 2 and 3.

i was still progressing on it.

thats just my opinion/exp of it tho..

Well Mate I done a bit in my day & I would say its grossly underdosed if its not fake. I normally get a lot of moon face on Dbol & my eyes close up but I got no effects from this stuff even at 4 so called 25mg tabs ED. So you bridged between cycles on it 2guns? Did you get any Dbol sides during this? Did your weight stay stable? Maybe its about 5mg or less per tab. I got some left so should bang down 10 or so ED to see if anything.

[2guns]

musclenz... i have been using that at 50mg ED and that all i was using, have been taking it inbetween 2 short cycles.

have just got more test and sum winny and the dbols have now run out

i think it did the job for myself.. i used at 50mg ED for 1st and 4th week and 100mg ED for week 2 and 3.

i was still progressing on it.

thats just my opinion/exp of it tho..

Well Mate I done a bit in my day & I would say its grossly underdosed if its not fake. I normally get a lot of moon face on Dbol & my eyes close up but I got no effects from this stuff even at 4 so called 25mg tabs ED. So you bridged between cycles on it 2guns? Did you get any Dbol sides during this? Did your weight stay stable? Maybe its about 5mg or less per tab. I got some left so should bang down 10 or so ED to see if anything.

yeah i bridged it for 4 weeks in between, was using sus250 before for 5 weeks then a 4 week bridge of this dbol then im now taking the prop and winny for 6 weeks. weight and strength stayed stable... also have been using deca all way thru from start to finish

maybe that isnt a true test to see if is real/corectly dosed, was just my thoughts from my own experience with this particular one.... taking it alone would be a good test but i dnt want to do that at the moment just to test it out lol

[samoan_muscle]

On the subject of fake Dbol. Dont buy this. Its around at the moment. Might be radicaly underdosed but did nothing at 100mg ed.

I used it and thought it was great stuff...radical strength increases as well as the massive bloat...I started looking too much like the michellin man about 2 weeks into it on 75mg per day so came right off...dont really like not being able to see abs.

[2guns]

yeah i bridged with it between cycles, thats correct.

was good imo

[auck_builder]

mabe the two are differnt?

[2guns]

mabe the two are differnt?

he posted a pic, same shit

[musclenz]

On the subject of fake Dbol. Dont buy this. Its around at the moment. Might be radicaly underdosed but did nothing at 100mg ed.

I used it and thought it was great stuff...radical strength increases as well as the massive bloat...I started looking too much like the michellin man about 2 weeks into it on 75mg per day so came right off...dont really like not being able to see abs.

Dam thats strange. I used 1.5 bottles with no effect. I'm on other gear but you would get some effects @ 50mg ED & then 100mg ED. Its just a plain pink pill slightly speakled tastes like bit like Dianabol but very soft chews up easily. No markings on the tab. WTF?!!

[Optimass]

It may have been cut down before it was restamped - may be two different batches - diff strengths.