post workout shake for 'cutting'

[modandm]

hey all

im well into my cutting and have hit a platau at 81.5kgs :oops:

my goal is 79kgs

i know i have had a few cheat days (2 in last week) and have been drinking :oops: but i haven;t lost any weight in 2 weeks - before that i was making steady progress.

Anyway - my question is - should i be including high gi carbs (malto/dextrose) in my post workout shake if I am cutting? How much carbs shoud i cut to to lose that last 2% bf - i am around 10 now. currently my diet is 200p/180c/45f total of 1925. I am eating carbs for breakfast morning tea and lunch mainly with just a small amount at dinner.

cheers

[goinhard]

You dont want the sugars in your cutting shake. Consume your carbs at breakfast and within 3 hours postworkout only now and cut to 120gm carbs as your approaching your goal. Is this a cardio free diet?

[craig.j]

i keep a little dex in my shake approx 15-20g. key times for carb intake are breakfast and PWO and of course cheat meals :oops:

[Varven]

You dont want the sugars in your cutting shake. Consume your carbs at breakfast and within 3 hours postworkout only now and cut to 120gm carbs as your approaching your goal. Is this a cardio free diet?

What is the logic behind carbs within a 3 hour window post work out and no sugars in pwo ???

[goinhard]

The muscle tissue has greater insulin sensitivity in comparison to fat cell sensitivity post workout, research shows it can last upto 6 hours. Therefore you get greater nutrient partitioning during this time. Maximal protein synthesis occurs with medium amounts of insulin therefore dextrose is not necessary just carbs, dextrose should refill glycogen faster but at the cost of a huge insulin spike halting lipolysis, not what you want when cutting.

[modandm]

You dont want the sugars in your cutting shake. Consume your carbs at breakfast and within 3 hours postworkout only now and cut to 120gm carbs as your approaching your goal. Is this a cardio free diet?

Thanks - no more sugars in pwo shake

I workout at 6pm so should i have a carb free pwo shake and then a dinner with carbs and protein b4 bed? In this case should i not have carbs with lunch?? I thought it was better to avoid carbs after 6pm?

cut to 120 carbs a day - ok i can do that np

cardio free - no i run to and from gym and play tennis and touch - very active.

ALSO whats lyposis - fat breakdown?

[Varven]

The muscle tissue has greater insulin sensitivity in comparison to fat cell sensitivity post workout, research shows it can last upto 6 hours. Therefore you get greater nutrient partitioning during this time. Maximal protein synthesis occurs with medium amounts of insulin therefore dextrose is not necessary just carbs, dextrose should refill glycogen faster but at the cost of a huge insulin spike halting lipolysis, not what you want when cutting.

Why would a huge insuling spike halt lipolysis ? "'

I was always led to believe an insulin spike essentially "opened" the cell membrane thus allowing amino acids to be shuttled in ?

but .. it doesnt stop or slow the lipolyis process, it only gives it a little burst.. i.e. imagine throwing in a tiny log into the furnace...

[fudoc5]

i agree with varven, at least 30g dex and creatine post wo,then 60g whey 5-10min after.

[craig.j]

The muscle tissue has greater insulin sensitivity in comparison to fat cell sensitivity post workout, research shows it can last upto 6 hours. Therefore you get greater nutrient partitioning during this time. Maximal protein synthesis occurs with medium amounts of insulin therefore dextrose is not necessary just carbs, dextrose should refill glycogen faster but at the cost of a huge insulin spike halting lipolysis, not what you want when cutting.

what research? please share

I think most people here have heard of the 'golden hour' rule, where insulin sensitivity is at its highest. ingesting CHO + Protein together gives the greatest insulin spike.

I have heard from others here that lipolysis does not stop during this time as long as excess calories have not been ingested

[Varven]

Yup.... even in the velocity diet, where you have no carbs except for post work out shake where you get dextrose ....

[goinhard]

post workout myths on t-nation will give you studies showing that insulin sensitivity can last upto 24 hours, but other research i have come across shows a relative decline after 6 hours.

Insulin as a hormone stops the breakdown of free fatty acids therefore personally i would avoid large spikes when a more complex carbohydrate could stimulate maximal synthesis.

EDIT: In response to the velocity diet, biotest is trying to sell their product 'surge', the calories are also extremely low, workout out to be about 1300 normal days and 1700 workout days for me.

[modandm]

all i can say is still very confused...

lets forget about dextrose in the pwo shake

could someone please give me a definitive answer on carbs while cutting..

specifically:

- how much to take

- when to take and when not to take

based on somone who trains at 6pm - 7pm daily

I KNOW i need carbs at bfast - should I have with lunch or dinner or both provided i stay to my 2000 cal limit?

[Flex]

all i can say is still very confused...

lets forget about dextrose in the pwo shake

could someone please give me a definitive answer on carbs while cutting..

specifically:

- how much to take

- when to take and when not to take

based on somone who trains at 6pm - 7pm daily

I KNOW i need carbs at bfast - should I have with lunch or dinner or both provided i stay to my 2000 cal limit?

Carb intake depends on what kind of diet do you want to do - a restricted carb diet, a ketogenic diet, or carb cycling?

If you want to get serious with your diet (ie ditch the alcohol and cheat meals), the quickest way to get to 8% would be to do a ketogenic diet, or at least carb cycling with very low carbs during the week and carbs on the weekend.

At 10% you'll only need to do a good keto diet for 3 or 4 weeks at the most to get down to 8% (or even less) so it means you only need to forgo the alcohol for a short period as well. Your best bet would be either the BodyOpus Ketogenic diet, or the T-nation Fat Fast or Velocity Diets.

[mr natural]

what about just squirting a big swag of clenbuterol in your post workout shake flex? what do you think?

[modandm]

what is a keto or t-zone diet in terms of calories and macro-nutrient consumption?

I have heard of cycling carbs on weekends but what is the definition of low carbs for the week? Like <100g a day???

[Pete]

Can you post what you actually eat? Sometimes people make errors without realising.

Seems unusual to plateau at 10% if you're only eat 1925Cal/day.

[poos_n_wees]

I'm not sure about why you're in a rush to cut, but the Protein Sparing Modified Fast (PSMF) is another option.

Its an extreme crash diet - essentially nothing but lean protein, veggies, essential fatty acids (in the form of fish oils) and vitamins/minerals. VERY low calories (in the 400-1200cal range depending on some factors). I lost ALOT of weight in 2 or so weeks on this... As well as my sanity lol.

What I liked about it, is that there are incorporated refeeds, diet breaks and free meals though.. oh, and you have to scale right back on your training volume.

I have heard of cycling carbs on weekends but what is the definition of low carbs for the week? Like <100g a day???

:nod:

Not sure about the T-Zone, but a keto diet's basically a PSMF but with more dietary fat.

[poos_n_wees]

IMO, an easier option would be to reduce to 1 cheat meal per week for the saniteez (or none if you want?), nix the drinking, and reduce your current cal levels another 10% or so. So if we were going by your current cals/macros.. it would look like:

1730cals

P - 200g

C - 131g

F - 45g

:shrug:

[modandm]

so far the week has been going well - diet and exercise wise

down to 80.5.

i have been eating 45 45 6 - 400-450 cal bfasts

small tuna and pasta morning tea

lunch tuna and pasta and salad and carrot and sweet potato and chicken and celery and tomato and asparagus -lol lots prolly about 45 45 20 --600cals

afternoon tea p shake ultra ripped 110 cals

workout

100% whey shake 110 cals

dinner

chicken salad with all ingredients from lunch - but no or little pasta

or tuna salad with all ingredients from above - but no or little pasta

+ almonds or flaxseed oil - around 10g fat

seems to be working.. hopefully il survive the long weekend without too much cheating...

beach on monday weigh in tuesday - goal - under 80!

[Pete]

Haha... you forgot to mention the cheating (or did I miss it?)

That'll be what's getting you. Just commit for a couple of weeks knowing that you'll get to your goal if you do

[Varven]

Are you measuring foods?

I used to visually measure them.. then I got a pair of weighing scales, literally from within a week I started measuring things "right"... my what a difference !

[Android]

Cut all shakes for the cutting phase...depends if it was for competition look or just summer time.

No shakes, no insulin spiking carbs 3 weeks before the goal date.

It's hard to give up a post-workout shake (goes against years of habit and advice not to) but replace it with BCAAs and Glutamine instead followed by a a chicken meal and your body won't miss a thing I promise. You'll look leaner, dryer and more cut.

Plus your body will actually expend energy (1 in 4 of those calories per gram of protein) just to digest the meat so you're getting some free fat-burning time in there as well.

Finally, insulin spikes slow/ halt the fat-eliminating process (they'll keep your metabolism up but the fat won't be shuttled away) hence why slow-steady carbs are preferred when leaning up.

Even someone on clen shouldn't do insulin spikes since clen's main job is to free up fat for removal....again the fat won't be shuttled away while insulin levels are high.

Just my advice :-)

[bambam]

reall? no shakes at all you recon?........ not even whey mixed in water... only 1 gram sugar......

[Android]

You can have shakes if you want...depends how hard-out you want to take your cutting and how extreme you want to look.

Extreme = no shakes, more protein from meat instead.

Swapping out shakes for protein instead has more benefits than just the protein content it provides for the cutting phase so yeah, no shakes.

If you do have a shake find a protein powder with no sodium (yeah right). So if you have to supplement your protein go for BCAAs instead.

It's only my opinion, you don't have to do that but the difference is obvious when you look at a guy who's cut and dry on real protein in the final 2-3 weeks.