Natural / Clean Competitors.

[Varven]

My understanding is that a few members on this board have competed at different levels in BB shows. Do any of you aspire to continue competing at a more mainstream level ?

If so, do you do it clean or would you juice ?

I realize Im not going to get answers to this if someone is already on juice ?

Im trying to figure out if its evenly vaguely possible for competitors to stand a chance without the super supplements.

From the big names that compete for Mr. O etc it seems all of them have years of super supplementing to get to their status.

Im thinking more along the lines of the part time amateur BB, people who have day jobs n compete not for money but for the challenge, rewards etc.

Whats all your opinions on it, competing naturally - pointless or worthwhile ?

cheers,

v.v.

ps: Admin, not sure if this is the right sub forum to post this under, feel free to move it if deemed necessary.

[frogie2001]

dude, definately worth competing!

I would seriously only do it for personal acheivement. it is pretty rare for anyone to make it to the pros, or even smi pro. I think only the top 5% make it to this level. stuff it if anyone is competing on juice and you front up against them, be judged on your own level, symettry and definition. BB is a personal not a team sport, presonally I compete against myself,and I am my own critic.

[Varven]

Frogie,

do you compete at the moment or intend to in the future ?

[Ash]

I was never into competing but my wife competed in a few shows in SA about 6 years ago. She got an immense amount of personal satisfaction out of the whole process but in reality, she had little chance of doing well unless she was willing to use super supplements and diuretics. She likes to make a joke about some of her competition having deeper voices than me but in all seriousness, the contrast was scary at times. Still, she had fun and that's what counts for her.

If you're doing it for the personal challenge and associated rewards, you'll have a blast. Frogie put it well - you can compete against yourself and stuff the rest!

On the other hand, if you want to win at any level, I think you'll need decent genetics, an excellent work ethic and the willingness to take some risks with your health.

IMO juice is not the be all and end all people make it out to be. Have a look at the overseas forums and you'll find plenty of guys who are using (and abusing) with only average effects. So are they all doing it wrong? I don't think so - some people just aren't going to be huge no matter what they do and even if they do end up huge and ripped on stage, they may not have any real symmetry. Genetics are often used as an excuse but the hand you're dealt is the only one you get to play the game with.

I say go for it! Maybe try entering in the athletic category and see how your body responds to contest preparation before you move up into the physique contests in the future if that's where you want to be.

[L.A Muscle]

Steroids are seen as a dangerous underground drug that kill and ruin lives. They can be extremely dangerous and are illegal to sell. However, to deny that tens of thousands of people use steroids daily and do not get problems would be a lie.

Steroids can be dangerous. They can cause small side effects like aggression, hair loss, genecomastia to bigger ones like heart disease and death! The other problem is that many steroids are counterfeit and you just don't know what you are getting.

I have seen people use steroids for years with little or no side effects. I have also seen people use a tiny amount and get some very nasty side effects.

My ultimate advice would be for you to try all natural methods available to you. 99% of people can get a very decent body using good nutrition, proper training and a sensible supplements regime. You have people like Ben Agboke who don't even use pro-hormones or anabolics and are over 18+ stones off season. So it is very possible to get a very big and muscular body without the use of steroids.

Steroids come into play in the professional non-drug-tested circuit. Here the big guys “needâ€

[Ash]

I have seen people use steroids for years with little or no side effects. I have also seen people use a tiny amount and get some very nasty side effects.

That's a nicely balanced post there - well said.

Your comment above probably says it best for me - steroid use is a gamble, albeit with decent odds, like playing Russian roulette using a revolver with a lot of chambers and 1 bullet. Your odds of getting away with it are pretty good but you don't want to be the 1 sucker who gets the bullet.

[hrdcor]

Not bad , pretty good actualy , but you know what not my type of body, I dont realy like it , I mean I respect it and admire it , but hey Dexter Jackson any day for me , and you see that is where the problem lies,Once upon a time some one some where took "something" that made them run faster , jump higher ,look better than every one elese and that was called "the Bench Mark" now ever since that day the bench mark has incorperated that something!! and unless we are prepared to see slower times,lower heights and not as good a looking bodies then things wont change, your moral standing on this subject may have you disagreeing with it all but you can not expect to change the future unless ALL are prepared to change , because while there is still someone out there running faster you can bet your bottom dollar there will always be someone wanting to catch him and pass him , it is called Human Nature!!

[L.A Muscle]

Agreed. I admire Ben for stance on Steroids. I also think for a Natural Body Builder he has a great physique, But I also admire and aspire to look more like the Kevin Levrones of this world. Drug free body builders just don't have the thickness.

[Ash]

Agreed. I admire Ben for stance on Steroids. I also think for a Natural Body Builder he has a great physique, But I also admire and aspire to look more like the Kevin Levrones of this world. Drug free body builders just don't have the thickness.

What do you think of Skip LaCour then? He's always claimed to be natural, has won in drug tested events and has some very impressive thickness.

[hrdcor]

ohhh the things I could tell you about skip!!! you would be surprised how easy it is to pass a test when they dont have a test for the stuff you take!!

[Pseudonym]

To get back to what I think Varven's original point was...

Im trying to figure out if its evenly vaguely possible for competitors to stand a chance without the super supplements.

How natural are the tested comps? For that matter, how natural are the untested comps? (Bearing in mind Varven is talking about the "part time amateur" level)

[hrdcor]

well thats the funny thing, the natural federation doesnt test ,they relie on the athletes word in honesty. the IFBB do but only those who go to the worlds(except in NZ where we test every show and even out of shows so you can get caught with caffine!!)

The only possible way to have a clean show with out any doubt is to test all, but that is not going to happen purely based on a finacial stand point , hell Peter hardwick who runs the Naturals even lets Steroid clinics sponcer the show !!!

[L.A Muscle]

So did Mark at the NZFBB.

[frogie2001]

yeah I was wondering about that also. what are the chances of getting tested when competing. the cost must prevent everyone but the placings from being tested.

To answer the question though I personally think that a natural can compete against a questionable. personal gains etc to the side. the name of the game is symetry, balance and proportion. I have seen guys that have used that will never win a show, due to their arms being to big for the chest etc. where as a natural may be slightly smaller but well balanced and defined. It all depends on the day I guess.

F

[hrdcor]

I agree Frogie, I know guys who are fully juiced and look like crap,due to bad genetic structure or poor dieting or even that totaly taped out juiced up look ie Nassar Elsombaty,but the point is we can never ever eliminate it, thats a cold hard fact, and truth be known the federations dont want to,IFBB dont as the pro divsion is there main marketing tool,NABBA dont full stop, and the Naturals dont because they dont want to spend there cash,reality is juice is here to stay, I beleive that fact should be dealt with and more energy should be spent on the education of the gear and its use safely and effectivly and more doctors need to educate themselfs in this field to be abel to look after such clients, hell I have even been asked for help in this field by some local doc,s !!!

[Marcus]

That's what scares me about steroids - there are so many distorted physiques appearing. Is it worth the risk?

[jono]

That's what scares me about steroids - there are so many distorted physiques appearing. Is it worth the risk?

so long as the ifbb continues to award the 300+ lb'rs eg ronnie, every other athlete knows they have 2 compete with that.

[frogie2001]

I agree the juice is here to stay. I think if anyone feels they want to use it they should be able, likewise with clean competitors. back to my original, its up to the idividual and their beliefs, targets, and "karma". clean competitors can feel good about the fact they have a great physique likewise with people who choose to supplement.

I always like to think of this debate along the same as a church. who is anyone to say that one is better than the other? people should jsut be allowed to choose and be happy with their choices

the other comment about the IFBB promoting the monsters. yeah that is true. but 90% of the pictures in the fitness mags don't use them (minus flex) they use standard athletes to demonstrate the ex's. and in all honesty I personally emulate them instead of the monsters.

what does everyone else think?

[Mercury]

I agree Frogie, I know guys who are fully juiced and look like crap,due to bad genetic structure or poor dieting or even that totaly taped out juiced up look ie Nassar Elsombaty,but the point is we can never ever eliminate it, thats a cold hard fact, and truth be known the federations dont want to,IFBB dont as the pro divsion is there main marketing tool,NABBA dont full stop, and the Naturals dont because they dont want to spend there cash,reality is juice is here to stay, I beleive that fact should be dealt with and more energy should be spent on the education of the gear and its use safely and effectivly and more doctors need to educate themselfs in this field to be abel to look after such clients, hell I have even been asked for help in this field by some local doc,s !!!

I gotta agree with 'hrdcor' on this point fully.

"I beleive that fact should be dealt with and more energy should be spent on the education of the gear and its use safely and effectivly and more doctors need to educate themselfs in this field to be abel to look after such clients, hell I have even been asked for help in this field by some local doc,s !!!

[L.A Muscle]

frogie2001 I'm sorry if this offends you, but you must be very naive to think 90% for those fitness models don't use any performance enhancing drugs. Its more like 90% do. Tell me do you think our top sports men and woman e.g. AB's and the likes are clean??

[Growth]

you must be very naive to think 90% for those fitness models don't use any performance enhancing drugs. Its more like 90% do.

:nod:

[hrdcor]

Frogie one of the biggest tools the fittness models are useing(and pseudonym this is true)is thyroid enhancement for the ability to stay lean( I totaly Do Not reccomend this practise as i have seen to many girls screw this up ), it is rive in the figure , fittness feilds, also clenbuterol and stanazol are also very very popular in this feild, this is common knowledge through out the sport at top levels, and I myself know several top international figure competitors whom use these products for there quests to be number one, once again right or wrong that is your call .I personaly do not advocate hormonal manipulation for women as its adverse side effects on a female can be up to 1000 times more prominant in a female than a male, but once again it is the indivduals choice, and while number 1 is doing 2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9 and so on will do it to.

[foxybrown]

[hrdcor]

Oh foxybrown, Thyro Guard is a perfectly safe excellent product,big ups to your nutritionst for noticeing your symtems and aiding you in this area.Thyro is a great safe product that will give your thyroid the little push it needs to push the balance in your favour(quite common actualy in alot of dieting females). The Thyroid products I was talking about with the previous post are the T3,T4 pharmaceutical variants which require strict medical controls to get and use, but these girls are swollowing them like lollies and totaly destroying there thyroid activity for life!! But you foxy are perfectly safe, and it sounds like your nutritionst is pretty switched on !!

[frogie2001]

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/index.cfm?ObjectID=10331352

Check out the link with Moe in the herald. hmmmm I wonder how this did get out of the NZFBB/ SParc??