reckn im ready to gear up?

[Bluto]

.

[2guns]

NO.

Your 20, your no where near your natuaral limits. At 188cm you should easily be able to build up to a fairly lean 110kg. You should defiinitly be able to Bench 150% of your Bodyweight and 200% Squat and Deadlift.

Wait til your 25.

But your complete PCT first.

bluto, how old were u when u started?

[IronGame]

i'll just stick up some stats, all criticism appreciated

20yo

1.88m

3.5yrs exp

Bulking/cutting cycles: started at 75kg->91kg->85 (end of rugby season)-> 100kg at 19%bf (max weight ever)-> 85kg->91kg (current)

lift stats (1RM)

BP - 92.5kg (chest probably my weakest body part)

DL - 160kg

Squat - 135kg (A2G)

legpress - 360kg at 2 reps

Shoulder press - 35kg dumbs at 6 reps

My 'proudest' lift - overhead dumbell tricep press 60kg dumbell for 4 reps whilst on creatine

bicep curls - 27.5kg for 6 reps

supps

ON 100% whey and occasional creatine cycle

diet

6-7 meals/day

300g clean carbs (oats, kumara, vogel bread, yogurt) mostly earlier in day and before workouts

400g protein (tuna, shakes, LF milk, eggs, steak, chicken breast and biltong!! atm (official safa mus food)

60-80g fat (flax, fish, PB)

prolly around 3000 cals/day

Is this a good base to start 'using'

NO.

Your 20, your no where near your natuaral limits. At 188cm you should easily be able to build up to a fairly lean 110kg. You should defiinitly be able to Bench 150% of your Bodyweight and 200% Squat and Deadlift.

Wait til your 25.

But your complete PCT first.

Why does he need to be at his "natural limit" before he starts bluto?

When did you start?

Genuine questions not trying to prevoke

[2guns]

bluto, how old were u when u started?

i was also not trying to provoke, but it seems everybody wants to tell everybody else to do wat they didnt do when it comes to deciding bout starting a cycle....

[Specter]

Too many good points on here and too many decisions to make.....as long as the body is primed for a cycle..well thats my 2cents worth....cheapskate eh! :pfft:

[Bluto]

.

[2guns]

from yr answer im getting that u didnt start till after u turned 25?

[mr natural]

bluto;everyones different on what they can gain naturally,just cause one person can reach a certain muscle size does not mean the next guy can.

however, to the orginal poster.steriods can be like a yo-yo effect.alot of what you gain can often be lost no matter what you do once you end a cycle.

If you build a good natural base then your body will support what enhanced mass you gain better when your not using in my opinon.

Do your reshearch and make the imformed choice yourself once you have trashed it out.

[biomax]

Always a very controversial subject about what age to start! My personal opinion is that 23 years is a good ball park figure if you have been training for at least 3 years and build a good base (strength and size wise). I prefer to steer away from the natural limit argument because that is a very individual thing that is nearly impossibele to determine.

Up until 23-25 years of age your natural hormone levels (test/Gh etc) will be highest they ever going to be, so why not use it to it's fullest advantage because like mr natural said, muscle that you build naturally will stay on you so much easier. The younger ( and also the less informed you are) the greater the chance of causing harm to your endocrine system. For me the risks outweigh the benefits if you are 20 years old.

At the end of the day (like 2g's and others have said) only you can decide. You have ask for advice and this is my 2 cents on the matter. You are still making gains naturally and you can still do it for a couple of years, so why take the gamble when its not really necessary at this stage?

What ever you decide remember knowledge is the key to success.

P.S. To anybody concerned I did practice what I preached beacause I only started at age 35 after 5 years of training naturally. I presume that most of the guys that answered this question don't have kids yet. I have a son and if he reaches 20 years of age and ask me this question this is the exact same answer I will give to him.

Always to the Max

Bio

[AlBundy]

Not sure if it was posted but if you are eating more protein than your body can use then it will upregulate protein metabolism to use it as energy rather than to build muscle. But then again its probably better to get to much than to little and everyones body is different your ability to make use of it might be better than mine for example.

[tikalosh]

to answer earlier q's if i were to start i would go with something like a 12 week cycle of 400mg test e, 4 week kicker of dbol and an aromatase inhibitor like the novice cycle from the isteroid site.

im at uni now so ive got a lot of resources available to research which i am doing.

the info you oaks have given so far is oresum :clap: so cheers, you all make compelling arguments. holding out to 24-25 untill my test levels start declining is my main reason to hold on, i think i am a bit impatient right now.

one problen ive always had is my bodyfat, the lowest its ever gotten is 14% at 85kg, losing more weight after this i reckn i look really shit and skinny.

ay AlBundy the protein metabolism thing, is this supported by studies? it makes sense from what i know. Does anyone else know about this?

ive always felt that my maintenance calories should come from a 40/40/20 (Carb/Pro/Fat) split diet and excess cals from protein (during bulk)?

[2guns]

one problen ive always had is my bodyfat, the lowest its ever gotten is 14% at 85kg, losing more weight after this i reckn i look really shit and skinny.

well the answer to that would be change yr diet or train harder or get more sleep if not all of them

[Jasthace]

Contrary to a lot of sensible advice the best time to use gear is when you are young.

When all the other growth factors are at maximum natural production to work in synergy.

Just beware that growth plate fusion starts with arms as young as 14yo and finishes with spine as late as 25yo.

Estrogen is the influential factor in growth plate fusion.

So take SERMS and AI s.{these have been shown to inhibit/delay GPF}

or go natural with test booster anti e and nettle root{SHBG}

Buy the way, what are you a rugby player or BB

Theres is no such thing as cheating in BB{take what you can to get as big you can}

But rugby is another story :pfft:

[Matrix]

one problen ive always had is my bodyfat, the lowest its ever gotten is 14% at 85kg, losing more weight after this i reckn i look really shit and skinny.

On the contrary Tikalosh, once you are under 10%BF, IMO you actually look alot more muscular and vascular.

[nzmusclemonster]

Bodybuilder's peak in their mid-late 30's.

Juicing at 20 = at least 15 years away from peaking.

Have a good think about it. If you are still tempted to juice..... Think about it again.

[Luigi]

one problen ive always had is my bodyfat, the lowest its ever gotten is 14% at 85kg, losing more weight after this i reckn i look really shit and skinny.

On the contrary Tikalosh, once you are under 10%BF, IMO you actually look alot more muscular and vascular.

true, but i think hes just meaning he looks smaller as im the same when i carry a bit more bf look bigger when wearing clothes.

[IronGame]

Bodybuilder's peak in their mid-late 30's.

Juicing at 20 = at least 15 years away from peaking.

Have a good think about it. If you are still tempted to juice..... Think about it again.

Natural Bodybuilders don't peak in there mid to late 30's.Have a think about that.

[samoan_muscle]

Bodybuilder's peak in their mid-late 30's.

Juicing at 20 = at least 15 years away from peaking.

Have a good think about it. If you are still tempted to juice..... Think about it again.

Natural Bodybuilders don't peak in there mid to late 30's.Have a think about that.

I think he was referring to bodybuilders in general??

I would actually agree with NZMMs statement...

[2guns]

Bodybuilder's peak in their mid-late 30's.

Juicing at 20 = at least 15 years away from peaking.

Have a good think about it. If you are still tempted to juice..... Think about it again.

nzmm, can u be more clear with wat u are saying.... are u saying u shouldnt use until u have reached yr peak? (in yr opinion mid to late 30s)

if so id disagree

[Jasthace]

Bodybuilder's peak in their mid-late 30's.

Juicing at 20 = at least 15 years away from peaking.

Have a good think about it. If you are still tempted to juice..... Think about it again.

nzmm, can u be more clear with wat u are saying.... are u saying u shouldnt use until u have reached yr peak? (in yr opinion mid to late 30s)

if so id disagree

I agree,most pros have retired by mid to late 30's

[IronGame]

And alot life time natural guys peak late 20's after that the body very slowly starts to decline

[Bluto]

.

[2guns]

this could go on forever... most guys in nz have nothing to show for it except a box full of plastic trophies.

if u juice now and dnt like it in 5 years... big deal!! just stop taking it lol, its not like yr gonna die.

hundreds of thousands of humans all over the world experiment with AAS during their youth and dont carry it on for long

use them sensibly and they are safe as

abuse them and they are not

simple.

[samoan_muscle]

this could go on forever... most guys in nz have nothing to show for it except a box full of plastic trophies.

if u juice now and dnt like it in 5 years... big deal!! just stop taking it lol, its not like yr gonna die.

hundreds of thousands of humans all over the world experiment with AAS during their youth and dont carry it on for long

use them sensibly and they are safe as

abuse them and they are not

simple.

I agree :nod:

[Bluto]

.