test levels

[mrgeeky]

After using Testosterone supplements my levels of Testosterone have increased from 16 to 96. What levels should one be trying to achieve?

And just a note for those interested, I am being prescribed the Test legally from a Doctor. Its amazing what you can get in this country if you do your homework. ;-)

Back to the levels of test, what should some one be trying to acheive, is there a certain goal as far as levels are concerened. Im 46 too if that makes any difference.

Also, I have been given DIM which is an estrogen blocker, or stops test from being converted in to estrogen. Does this work, is there any evidence to support the continuance of this product or am I being had.

Any advice really appreciated. thx.

[IronGame]

What dose TRT are you on weekly?

I wouldn't imagin you need DIM or any estrogen metaboliser/SERM at a TRT dose unless your worried about prostate cancer etc.

We need some estrogen to get maximum effect from testerone and its derivitives

[2guns]

Its amazing what you can get in this country if you do your homework.

u can get anything if your prepared to pay the price

[mrgeeky]

what dose of TRT am I on. TRT = Testosterone? Sorry, im new to this stuff. Im not on any particular dose. Each dose is in the form of a 200mg Troche. (its not a regulated industry) As such, (being a Troche) I wouldnt rely on the 200mg per day as a guide line. Thats why I had the test to see what my levels of Testosterone were after taking it. My levels were 95 or 96 from memory. It was one of those levels. Anyway, the highest normal level for a young male is 35 so the Endicriniologist tells me. His blood tests are a far more acurate way to measure exactly what I am getting. Is this measurement not a guideline body builders can use? The Troches that I use because of the way they are manufacutred could quite easily cause varying levels of Test. I will know this for sure after my next blood test.

The price of the Troches is very cheap, thats the only reason I am using them instead of other sources. But yes, its a legal and an unregulated way of getting Test cheap, so reliability of doseages isnt that great from what I am told . So I only really have the Testosterone levels in my blood to go on to be sure. Is 95/96 too high for long term use?

[IronGame]

what dose of TRT am I on. TRT = Testosterone? Sorry, im new to this stuff. Im not on any particular dose. Each dose is in the form of a 200mg Troche. (its not a regulated industry) As such, (being a Troche) I wouldnt rely on the 200mg per day as a guide line. Thats why I had the test to see what my levels of Testosterone were after taking it. My levels were 95 or 96 from memory. It was one of those levels. Anyway, the highest normal level for a young male is 35 so the Endicriniologist tells me. His blood tests are a far more acurate way to measure exactly what I am getting. Is this measurement not a guideline body builders can use? The Troches that I use because of the way they are manufacutred could quite easily cause varying levels of Test. I will know this for sure after my next blood test.

The price of the Troches is very cheap, thats the only reason I am using them instead of other sources. But yes, its a legal and an unregulated way of getting Test cheap, so reliability of doseages isnt that great from what I am told . So I only really have the Testosterone levels in my blood to go on to be sure. Is 95/96 too high for long term use?

TRT= Testosterone Replacement Theropy

IMO a "free testosterone" level of 95 shouldn't pose a problem long term as "replacement" of your natural testosterone levels is exactly what it is supposed to be. It would be similar I would imagin to injecting around 120-180mg test enanthate a week. But will do little in terms of phisique changes.

[mrgeeky]

:-(

Hmmm, so if I stuck with that and added anavar in the correct doseage. Could that be my next step, or would I need to up the testosterone. I would rather stack the Anavar if thats the correct way to go.

[2guns]

wat are your goals? to get put on muscle using TRT? u will need alot more than that lol

[mrgeeky]

yes to put size on! Hmm, back to the drawing board. I wonder if just adding anavar to the test I am taking would do the trick? What amount of anavar would I need?

I am thinking anavar because I can get it, also I have always had a problem with being overweight and find it hard to lose it, even with massive amounts of cardio and cutting my food back. My diet is a nightmare, eat too much, I put on weight, not enough and I run out of puff in the sport I am doing. Its so hard to get my diet right, but thats another story.

Would anavar help to put size on, I know its not the best for adding size but it is good for losing weight is it not? Or would I need to up the testosterone?

[Luigi]

id say do a bit of reading on the net as all the questions your asking have been answered a hundred times b4 just type anavar cycle in google and ull find a heap of answers, and no its not the best for bulking try dbol with ur test

[mrgeeky]

agreed, but its always good to get it with out having to do all the searching and reading. I think Anavar is my next step as it will help to gain muscle, got to be better than just the amount of test Im using. Also, will do the main thing and help lose fat. Found a clinic that is really on to it with this stuff so probably sussed. cheers guys.

[Pseudonym]

wat are your goals? to get put on muscle using TRT? u will need alot more than that lol

Surely that's a matter of perspective though? While the amount of test he's getting may be insignificant to a young guy who's on loads of "real" gear, it's still got to be a vast improvement on a natural 46-yo test levels. Even if it only returns his test levels to that of a 20-yo, it would help gain muscle, surely?

[2guns]

My diet is a nightmare, eat too much, I put on weight, not enough and I run out of puff in the sport I am doing. Its so hard to get my diet right, but thats another story.

well its not really another story! its kinda the same story,going to this clinic for a lil bit of test replacment and poppin a couple of pills a day aint gonna do much apart from make u feel a lil bettter about yourself, its not about eating too much or too less its about eating the right food over the wrong food

its not magic like u think it is mate, if your not eating and tarainng properly it actually does f*ck all to tell u the truth, iv done a cycle where i was blahza as an gained nothing and it wasnt a low dose either lol, started on 92kg and finished a bloated 94kg after 10 weeks.

so mate, do some reasearch, ask more questions and u will soon c wat u are suppose to do and how to do it

[2guns]

Surely that's a matter of perspective though

yes, its my perspective :pfft:

[mrgeeky]

cheers for all your advice 2guns.. What I meant is, I didnt really want to go in to my diet in this thread. I do realise how important diet is, thats why I say its such a nightmare for me to get it right. I do take my food intake very seriously and am probably quite knowledgable in that area. The area that I am seriously lacking knowledge in, is the roids, its an area that I have very little knowledge in.

Im thinking of buying a copy of the Steroid Bible. Hopefully that will guide me in the right direction. Cheers for you advice. It is much appreciated.

[mrgeeky]

Pseudonym According to the endicrinologist that I saw. The Testosterone level that I was given is around 3 times the amount that a young male with high levels of Test would have.

The highest a young male would have would be a level of 35. My levels after taking the Troches was 95. Nearly 3 times the amount of normal. The Endocrinologist seemed quite concerened that the amount I was getting is not a normal amount but a (I think he called it a Pharmalogical amount) or something like that.

I have to take 2guns word for it, that its still a very small level as I have no idea what constitutes a good level for a bodybuilder, but if its a safe level then Im happy.

Once I have been to the New clinic that I have come across that deals soley in this stuff, I will report back and let you all know whats happening. Again, cheers for the advice and help everyone.

[nzmusclemonster]

Pseudonym According to the endicrinologist that I saw. The Testosterone level that I was given is around 3 times the amount that a young male with high levels of Test would have.

The highest a young male would have would be a level of 35. My levels after taking the Troches was 95. Nearly 3 times the amount of normal. The Endocrinologist seemed quite concerened that the amount I was getting is not a normal amount but a (I think he called it a Pharmalogical amount) or something like that.

I have to take 2guns word for it, that its still a very small level as I have no idea what constitutes a good level for a bodybuilder, but if its a safe level then Im happy.

Once I have been to the New clinic that I have come across that deals soley in this stuff, I will report back and let you all know whats happening. Again, cheers for the advice and help everyone.

That Test level is pretty freakin high... I had a few tests done once and the doc seemed pretty impressed that my levels were in the low 30's....

You must be jerkin off ten time a day Mr Geeky!

[mrgeeky]

yeah, but in the low 30s is not on juice. Either that or what your using is watered down. lol.

[mrgeeky]

which brings about a point, what would be the levels of a typical bodybuilder thats using?

[2guns]

what would be the levels of a typical bodybuilder thats using?

upwards of 500mg test per week

[samoan_muscle]

yeah, but in the low 30s is not on juice. Either that or what your using is watered down. lol.

I would think that the low 30's would be a reasonably healthy level for a male aged 20 to 30, not on gear.

I remember whilst on on cycle of anapolon, taking 3 tabs a day stacked with other injectables I had a test level of around 85. Around 4 weeks after the end of the cycle my bloods came bakc with test level 7.5 lol...a bit of useless information for ya...

[IronGame]

IMO you are better off using significantly higher doses for shorted durations and then reverting back to replacement doses. You may concider using 1/3 to 1/2 what you are currently on to give you slightly above average levels for mantance periods then using 2-3 times what you are currently using for bursts of 6 weeks or so with the "gear" you have accumulated during the lower dose phase.

Adding Anavar will do very little and you will probably just be dissapointed with the results.

Best bet: get some testosterone oil and do it like everyone else :wink:

But please spend many many more hours researching, you will never learn everything but there is a vast wealth of information out there just waiting to be abbsorbed

[mrgeeky]

"IMO you are better off using significantly higher doses for shorted durations and then reverting back to replacement doses. You may concider using 1/3 to 1/2 what you are currently on to give you slightly above average levels for mantance periods then using 2-3 times what you are currently using for bursts of 6 weeks or so with the "gear" you have accumulated during the lower dose phase"

That actually makes perfect sense to me. That advice is really appreciated and I will use it. thank you.

Just one question, regarding Anavar, although it wont contribute towards putting on much muscle, will it contriibute to burning fat. This is one of my major issues. Always been overweight and find it extremely hard to lose, even with the correct diet and lots of cardio. If i look sideways at an extra portion of something, I put on a stone. lol. Serioiusly, I hve to be so strict with my diet, its extremely hard. Would Anavar help out here?

[2guns]

Would Anavar help out here?

no it wouldnt, it doesnt have very strong fat burning properties as far as im aware

[mrgeeky]

please dont shoot the messenger. Just some literature I came across on Anavar. Im merely a newbie trying to learn all I can. Have a read and see what you think. LINK REMOVED. Thought it better to just post content, incase I got in trouble for posting an external link.

[mrgeeky]

Anavar (oxandrolone)

Anabolic Steroids Profile <-- Return to Main Profiles Page

Anavar

(Oxandrolone)

Anavar (oxandrolone) is not very toxic, not very androgenic, mildly anabolic, and pretty mild on the body´s HPTA (Hypothalamic-Testicular-Pituitary-Axis). Those are its 4 major points, and I´d like to examine each one a bit further; as usual, gym-rumors and internet conjecture has made this steroid the subject of many misconceptions.

Anavar (Oxandrolone) Side Effects

First of all, and this will come as no surprise to many people, Anavar (oxandrolone) is quite mild on your liver. It´s probably the mildest oral steroid available today. Dosages of up to 80mgs/day are easily tolerated by most men, and most side effects often found with other steroids are not common with ´var (1). For this reason, Anavar is frequently the steroid of choice for many top level female bodybuilders and other athletes.

Anavar Dosage

Due to its being a mild steroid in every sense of the word, high amounts of Anavar dosage are needed. It binds reasonably well to the AR, but pretty high doses are still needed and I would never suggest doing less than 20mgs/day. In fact, 20-80mgs are needed to start halting AIDS related wasting(1) and recovering weight for burn victims (2) so that´s the range I´d recommend keeping your dosages in concerning this compound. Personally, I´d use 100mgs/day if I were ever going to try this stuff. Any less than this amount (20-100mgs) would be a waste. For women, however, I think 2.5-10mgs/day would suffice. Virilation is not a concern with this compound, as it is only very mildly androgenic (3). Water retention is also virtually nil with it.

Although Anavar is an oral steroid, and has been alpha-alkylated to survive oral ingestion and the first pass through the liver, it´s still relatively mild in that respect too..., the unique chemical configuration of oxandrolone both confers a resistance to liver metabolism as well as noticable anabolic activity. It would also appear that Anavar appears not to exhibit the serious hepatotoxic effects (jaundice, cholestatic hepatitis, peliosis hepatis, hyperplasias and neoplasms) typically attributed to the C17alpha-alkylated AASs. (17) Anavar has even been used successfully in some studies to heal cutaneous wounds (7), or to improve respiratory function (18). Both of these novel properties could make it a good choice for in-season use for boxers, Mixed Martial Arts competitors, and other such athletes.

Anavar and Fat Loss

Now here´s some interesting stuff for anyone interested primarily in the fat loss properties of this stuff: Anavar may be what we´d call a "fat-burning steroid". Abdominal and visceral fat were both reduced in one study when subjects in the low/normal natural testosterone range used anavar (4). In another study, appendicular, total, and trunk fat were all reduced with a relatively small dose of 20mgs/day (8), and no exercise. In addition, weight gained with ´var may be nearly permanent too. It might not be much, but you´ll stand a good chance of keeping most of it. In one study, subjects maintained their weight (re)gains from anavar for at least 6 months after cessation (2)! Concomitantly, in another study, Twelve weeks after discontinuing oxandrolone, 83% of the reductions in total, trunk, and extremity fat were also sustained (8)! If you´re regaining weight, Anavar will give you nearly permanent gains, and if you are trying to lose fat (and you keep your diet in check), the fat lost with Anavar is basically looks to be nearly permanent. Check this chart out:

Absolute change in total fat mass (A) and trunk fat (B) by dual-energy X-ray absorptiometry from baseline to study week 12 (solid bars) and from baseline to study week 24 (open bars) in the placebo (n = 12) and the oxandrolone (n = 20) study groups. Values are means ± SE. *Significant decrease from baseline, P < 0.001. Significant difference between study groups for change in fat mass from 0 to 12 wk, P < 0.001. (15)(8)

Anavar Cycles

Keep in mind this is all without any Post-Cycle-Therapy, and without any change in diet or training! And although many of the studies done on oxandrolone use elderly men or young boys as the test subjects, some evidence suggests that many of the effects of oxandrolone are not age dependant (11). If you are following the typical "time on = time off" protocol, this means you can lose a bunch of fat during your time on, then keep most (if not all) of it off until your next cycle. That makes it a great drug for athletes who are drug tested and need to be clean for their season, yet need to keep the fat/weight they lost on their cycle off& I´m thinking about wrestlers and other weight-class athletes. Anavar is also the clear choice for a "spring-cutting" cycle, to look great at the beach and you can use it up until the summer starts, and then keep the fat off during the entire beach season!

Anavar is great for strength and cutting purposes, but not for bulking or a lot of weight gain. In other words, what I´m saying is that everything you gain will be solid. Personally I am leaning towards a theory which basically purports that the more solid your gains are, the more you´ll keep (percentage-wise). It makes sense, when you think about it; people make a lot of weight gains on the highly water-retentive steroids (Dbol, A50, long estered testosteones, etc. ), but lose the greatest percentage of their gains afterwards. The same seems to be opposite for the steroids which cause less (or no) water retention (Anavar, Primo, Winstrol, etc& ).

So why else may you keep such a high proportion of what you gained on ´var? Well, I think it may be due to it´s relatively light impact on the HPTA, which brings me to my final point; Anavar will not totally shut down your HPTA, especially at lower doses (unlike testosterone, which will eventually do this even at a 100mg dose, or deca which will do it with a single 100mg dose). This could be due, at least partly, to the fact that Anavar doesn´t aromatize (convert to estrogen).

Serum testosterone, SHBG (Sex Hormone Binding Globulin), and LH (Leutinizing Hormone) will be slightly suppressed with low doses of Anavar, but less than with other compounds. FSH (Follicle Stimulating Hormone) , IGF1 (Insulin Like Growth Factor 1) and GH (Growth Hormone) will not be suppressed with a low dose of Anavar, but will actually be raised significantly (12)(13)(14) as you may have guessed, and LH will even experience a "rebound" effect when you stop using anavar (3) If your endocrine system and HPTA are funtioning normally, you should be able to use anavar with minimal insult to it, and can even keep most of your values within the normal range (5).

Thus, Anavar may even be ideal for use in bridges between cycles, (at very low doses under 10mgs perhaps), or as previously mentioned, for cutting/strength cycles at 50-100mgs.

Anavar Profile

[17b-hydroxy-17a-methyl-2-oxa-5a-androstane-3-one]

Molecular Weight: 306.4442

Formula: C19H30O3

Melting Point: 235 238 Celcius

Manufacturer: BTG, SPA, Originally Searle (1964)

Effective dose: (Men)20-100mgs/day (or .125mg/kg~bdywt); (Women) 2.5-20mgs.day

Active Life: 8-12 hours

Detection Time: 3 weeks

Anabolic/Androgenic Ratio (Range): 322-630:24

References:

Proj Inf Perspect. 1997 Nov;(23):19.

Burns. 2003 Dec;29(8):793-7

Clin Endocrinol (Oxf). 1993 Apr;38(4):393-8.

Int J Obes Relat Metab Disord 1995 Sep;19(9):614-24

jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/84/8/2705

Segal S, Cooper J, Bolognia J., Treatment of lipodermatosclerosis with oxandrolone in a patient with stanozolol-induced hepatotoxicity., J Am Acad Dermatol 2000 Sep;43(3):558-9

Demling RH., Oxandrolone, an anabolic steroid, enhances the healing of a cutaneous wound in the rat., Wound Repair Regen 2000 Mar-Apr;8(2):97-102

J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2004 Oct;89(10):4863-72.

Demling RH, Orgill DP., The anticatabolic and wound healing effects of the testosterone analog oxandrolone after severe burn injury., J Crit Care 2000 Mar;15(1):12-7

Hart DW, Wolf SE, Ramzy PI, Chinkes DL, Beauford RB, Ferrando AA, Wolfe RR, Herndon DN., Anabolic effects of oxandrolone after severe burn., Ann Surg 2001 Apr;233(4):556-64

Demling RH, DeSanti L., The rate of restoration of body weight after burn injury, using the anabolic agent oxandrolone, is not age dependent., Burns 2001 Feb;27(1):46-51

Demling RH, DeSanti L., Oxandrolone, an anabolic steroid, significantly increases the rate of weight gain in the recovery phase after major burns., J Trauma 1997 Jul;43(1):47-51

Papadimitriou A, Preece MA, Rolland-Cachera MF, Stanhope R., The anabolic steroid oxandrolone increases muscle mass in prepubertal boys with constitutional delay of growth., J Pediatr Endocrinol Metab 2001 Jun;14(6):725-7

Doeker B, Muller-Michaels J, Andler W, Induction of early puberty in a boy after treatment with oxandrolone? Horm Res 1998;50(1):46-8

J Appl Physiol 96: 1055-1062, 2004. First published October 24, 2003; doi:10.1152/japplphysiol.00808.2003 8750-7587/04

James JS., Wasting syndrome: oral oxandrolone re-released in U.S., AIDS Treat News 1995 Dec 22;(no 237):3-4

Drugs. 2004;64(7):725-50.

Mt Sinai J Med. 1999 May;66(3):201-5.