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results from elite show

wgtnmuscle

By wgtnmuscle
in Bodybuilding & aesthetics

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mr natural Senior member

mr natural

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Mr Natural, you seem to be somewhat out of the loop to the piont its getting ridiculous, these people you claim wanted their Pro cards but did not get them, please can you name them. In the meantime I'll name the 12 Winners of the Overall Mr NZ and who took their Pro cards, who did not and to the best of my knowledge WHY.

1994 BJ Johns Applied and took the card

1995 Kevin OGrady Applied and took the card

1996 Mark Stewart Offered and declined

1997 Hugh Willis Declined option (personally said to me "I'd

rather be a good amateur than a bad Pro)

1998, 2000, 2007 Mike Debenham

Declined option- Going to the 2008 Worlds

1999 Justin Rys Applied and took card

2001 Phil Kulklinski Declined Option -Went to the Worlds twice

2002 Brian Mcfarlane Declined Option

2003 Joe Ulberg Declined Option -competed in MULTIPLE Worlds

2004 Moe El Moussawi Granted card due to Mediterranian Champs

win PRIOR to Nationals

2005 Darryl Tomulii Application refused after drug test failure at

2005 Nationals

2006 Mike Kingsnorth Applied and Granted -After 16 YEARS Competing

exclusively for NZFBB, winning 4 National and 1

International Title- not exctly handed card on a

plate huh?????

2008 Mike Debenham- oops getting a little ahead of myself:)

now the NZFBB have also granted Pro cards to Marc Rainbow, winner of 2 Open national titles in Under 75 and 75-80kg category, Dave Smith- winner of the 1997 Pro Qualifier comp held at the Pan Pacifics and Salah Ibrahim, 2006 Under 85k Open winner.

Now I'm not trying to debate who deserved or didn't deserve their card, merely pointing out that of those that qualified, a significant number did NOT want to have the card, they aspired to other dreams. I know this because all but one have told me first hand!

Again can you tell me who these people you know who have applied or deserved their cards are that didn't get them, because thats a pretty deserving list I've put up there, and if they are so deserving, why haven't they simply just stepped up- won the Overall at the nationals and then applied- it'll be "handed to them on a platter" too?

oh for god's sake mk i was refering to the level of overseas guys turning pro being alot higher in comparsion to the NZ guys

thanks for the well imformed imformation though! :)

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mr natural Senior member

mr natural

Posted
Posted
Mr Natural, you seem to be somewhat out of the loop to the piont its getting ridiculous, these people you claim wanted their Pro cards but did not get them, please can you name them. In the meantime I'll name the 12 Winners of the Overall Mr NZ and who took their Pro cards, who did not and to the best of my knowledge WHY.

1994 BJ Johns Applied and took the card

1995 Kevin OGrady Applied and took the card

1996 Mark Stewart Offered and declined

1997 Hugh Willis Declined option (personally said to me "I'd

rather be a good amateur than a bad Pro)

1998, 2000, 2007 Mike Debenham

Declined option- Going to the 2008 Worlds

1999 Justin Rys Applied and took card

2001 Phil Kulklinski Declined Option -Went to the Worlds twice

2002 Brian Mcfarlane Declined Option

2003 Joe Ulberg Declined Option -competed in MULTIPLE Worlds

2004 Moe El Moussawi Granted card due to Mediterranian Champs

win PRIOR to Nationals

2005 Darryl Tomulii Application refused after drug test failure at

2005 Nationals

2006 Mike Kingsnorth Applied and Granted -After 16 YEARS Competing

exclusively for NZFBB, winning 4 National and 1

International Title- not exctly handed card on a

plate huh?????

2008 Mike Debenham- oops getting a little ahead of myself:)

now the NZFBB have also granted Pro cards to Marc Rainbow, winner of 2 Open national titles in Under 75 and 75-80kg category, Dave Smith- winner of the 1997 Pro Qualifier comp held at the Pan Pacifics and Salah Ibrahim, 2006 Under 85k Open winner.

Now I'm not trying to debate who deserved or didn't deserve their card, merely pointing out that of those that qualified, a significant number did NOT want to have the card, they aspired to other dreams. I know this because all but one have told me first hand!

Again can you tell me who these people you know who have applied or deserved their cards are that didn't get them, because thats a pretty deserving list I've put up there, and if they are so deserving, why haven't they simply just stepped up- won the Overall at the nationals and then applied- it'll be "handed to them on a platter" too?

oh for god's sake mk i was refering to the level of overseas guys turning pro being alot higher in comparsion to the NZ guys

thanks for the well imformed imformation though! :)

I agree with you totally Mr Natural, The Top Level American Ameatur competition is of the highest level. MK and Salah would never ever ever come close to getting a Pro Card if they applied in America.

thank god someone got it!

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Matrix Member

Matrix

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[

b]You are honestly trying to put Mike and Salah in the Same catorgory as Ronnie Coleman?

No disrespect to Mike or Salah, but that is a huge insult to a 8 time Mr Olympia. Dennis Wolf is a monster and has been for a long time.

Mike Henry, Lee Labrada and Shawn Ray are how tall??

Mike and Salah are how tall??

Thats like saying Lee Priest isnt huge beacause he dosnt compete over 100kg, the man is Five Foot Four!!!!!!!!!!!!!! if that.

Hi Bluto, If you re-read my article carefully you will realize that I am not trying to compare our two new pro's to Ronnie at all in terms of their physiques. What I am trying to illustrate is that athletes can make great gains once they turn pro and are free from the constraints of drug testing.

Ronnie got his pro card at the 1991 IFBB World Games and passed the drug test. He competed at around the 238-240 lb mark at 5'11. 10 years later, in the non tested professional federation, he was competing at around 290lbs. Thats a huge improvement.It wasn't untill 4-5 years into his pro career that he started getting high placings in the bigger shows, in fact he placed outside of the top 10 in his first 3 shows and was initially only known for his huge arms!

The main thing is that he was improving each year as a pro. If you read Mikes post, he mentions that he has made more progress in 1 year as a pro than 10 as an amateur.The professional environment, much like that of NABBA, sets the athletes who have been drug or relatively drug free up for big improvements.

I agree with you that Mark looks very impressive and complete and would not look out of place in a pro line up, However, unless he posts his ambitions, how do we know what his future goals are? Who know's if he even want's that? It's all speculation.

Food for thoughton weight vs height thing: Frank Zane, 3 times Mr Olympia, height5'9, best competition weight 185lbs (84kg), not a short bodybuilder...

Bigger isn't always better, Better is better. Thankfully bodybuilding is judged by more than just lean mass and weight, otherwise the competitors would just turn up, be weighed and perform relaxed quarter turns. IMO the fans and statisticians tend to care more about weight than the judges and competitors do.

There are many occasions where a smaller, less massive competitor has beaten a more massive competitor, e.g 1994 Olympia, if it was just judged on ripped size, Paul Dillet(270lbs) would have been first or second to Dorian, yet he was beaten by Shawn Ray(205lbs). Both men were ripped yet when it came to presenting their package Shawn posed rings around Paul and could get the best out of his physique in every pose.

Even commentators Joe Amato and Frank Zane commented that "as soon as Paul poses, he losses something" and they were right, Paul was massive and had arguably some of the best genetics ever, but he looked painfully awkward in the mandatories and had a very average routine that did little to showcase his fabulous frame. Shawn was 2nd, Paul 4th.

Yes if two competitors are even in muscularity,symmetry,shape and proportion, then the bigger guy will and should win, but not at the expense of the other factors, otherwise someone like Greg Kovacs would have been the Mr Olympia and that would have been ridiculous.

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2guns Veteran member

2guns

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What I am trying to illustrate is that athletes can make great gains once they turn pro and are free from the constraints of drug testing.

this is very true, and brings us back to the good old over debated topic of "lets drop the drug testing" it just goes round and round

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L.A Muscle Member

L.A Muscle

Posted
Posted
Yep that was the top 3.

Just a quick note to apologize to you guys and girls out there who could see that I was not "ON' as they say.

We tried something a little different with our water and carb depletion, which as you could see didn’t work. It left me flat with cramps from head to toe.

I was unable to even get a pump back stage.

I am not making excuses for my poor showing merely apologizing to you guys if I let anyone down.

I will do a full show report this weekend for you all to see what I did and how not to make the same mistakes.

I will include pre, show and post show pics.

Thanks for all your support.

Regards J,

How much did you weigh on the day?

Your about 5'10? , Im guessing 85kg?

5'10 yes. At the weigh in 3hrs be4 the show my weight was 95.2kg

Weighed in 5min after the show at 96.5

Next morning i was 102.8 harder and dry.

That night 104.5 even harder.

Guess thats the game. Its all about timing, and mine was off.

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michaelk Senior member

michaelk

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As has been mentioned before by Rigger, when we the NZFBB competitors stand next to the Team universe competitors (who can take pro Cards and are also drug tested as I was 3 times in 2006) we hold our own.

You need to compare apples with apples, NPC in USA is more like NABBA in NZ without its testing, and comparitavely- Mark Anderson has shown that those NZ Oranges do compare with the Claifornia and european variety.

You won't get any disagreement with me about what a great bodybuilder Mark is.

I don't agree with having one federation, I think business competition is healthy, and I see the NABBA fed serving parts of the country well that perhaps NZFBB don't visit quite enough. I especially like the way they move their Nationals around too.

Martin from Sweeden is about 5'11" I have a great pic of me and him standing next to each other and I'm 5'10ish.

Next time I stand onstage in competiton I'll be 99kg at the same condition, as I've discussed in another forum, there was a reason I did these shows, knowing I was too light....but I was there!

its about progress, I'm making it

I've won the overall Mr NZ once and the Open mens 80-85 in 2005. Plus two other Novice national titles and the Australasians back before the invention of the internet!

LA Muscle - Number 1 ranked Kiwi who showed up, there were plenty more who got invites and didn't even reply. (with the exception to Mark Anderson and Mike Debenham whom both competed successfully and very recently and earn a free pass).

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michaelk Senior member

michaelk

Posted
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Like I said you have won the NZFBB, Mr NZ once.

Dont get me wrong I think you have a great shape, a nice even physique. I just thought were you closer to 6 foot and closer to 85-90kg by the look of you. Sounds like you have gained alot lately, great stuff.

1 more than most!

I always wanted to get to 6 foot :twisted: stopped a couple short.

I would look light when I'm next to Melvin at 5'8 and 115kg, I knew I didn't have the size, but no exscuse not to bring the condition.

1 Mr NZ is enough (depending who you talk to, plenty call themselves "Lightweight Mr NZ or junior Mr NZ so it takes some qualifiying which title people are talking about- i just say Overall Mr NZ for 06), historically it used to be that once you one a title, you couldn't compete for it again, that is why the Mr Olympia was developed to allow all the Mr Universe guys to compete again against each other, Mike D is the only multiple Mr NZ in nz.

nothing personal taken from your comments, good luck to you in your plans as well.

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mr natural Senior member

mr natural

Posted
Posted
As has been mentioned before by Rigger, when we the NZFBB competitors stand next to the Team universe competitors (who can take pro Cards and are also drug tested as I was 3 times in 2006) we hold our own.

You need to compare apples with apples, NPC in USA is more like NABBA in NZ without its testing, and comparitavely- Mark Anderson has shown that those NZ Oranges do compare with the Claifornia and european variety.

You won't get any disagreement with me about what a great bodybuilder Mark is.

I don't agree with having one federation, I think business competition is healthy, and I see the NABBA fed serving parts of the country well that perhaps NZFBB don't visit quite enough. I especially like the way they move their Nationals around too.

Martin from Sweeden is about 5'11" I have a great pic of me and him standing next to each other and I'm 5'10ish.

Next time I stand onstage in competiton I'll be 99kg at the same condition, as I've discussed in another forum, there was a reason I did these shows, knowing I was too light....but I was there!

its about progress, I'm making it

I've won the overall Mr NZ once and the Open mens 80-85 in 2005. Plus two other Novice national titles and the Australasians back before the invention of the internet!

LA Muscle - Number 1 ranked Kiwi who showed up, there were plenty more who got invites and didn't even reply. (with the exception to Mark Anderson and Mike Debenham whom both competed successfully and very recently and earn a free pass).

ha mark anderson is one out of the bunch,nabba national guys are still not near the npc guys coming through in my opinon.

i think the level is rising though and there are a few guys their that are standing out in terms of muscle mass and condition ect...

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mr natural Senior member

mr natural

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if you look at MK here next to the pros, hes got an awesome shape next to the veterens...if hes being outweighed by ten kgs, imagine his frame with that extra 10....even 5

actually when you do look at the pic mike does alright. :nod:

do you have any of salah in the comparisons by any chance pimp?

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Tonka Member

Tonka

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Tall- well over 6 foot, and from what I've been told, squats 390 for 2!!!!

got a great pic of me and Oscar (the tall guy) in Melbourne, at the after function, I don't know how to get them off my phone and onto the pc :?

At the 2004 Oceania Powerlifting Champs in Fiji, Oscar competed for Tahiti and his stats then: height 1.91m and weight 156kg (supposedly 10-11% BF). According to some lifters that represented NZ at that meet they said the 10-11% BF wasnt too far off either :shock: . His lifts on that day were Squat - 340kg, bench - 277.5kg, Deadlift - 320kg for a 937.5kg total.

He's certainly one big mofo. Good to see him do well and mix it up with the pro boys on stage.

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