good old GOFIGURE getting on the band wagon

[Marcus]

You do, but the more gains you make while natural will be the ones that hang around.

[2guns]

You do, but the more gains you make while natural will be the ones that hang around.

wat makes u say this?

if nutrition and training are good as well as pct after coming off why cant most of yr muscle that came from gear stay round as long.

muscle is muscle, if built naturally or thru use of steroids its still made up the same buddy

[Dale]

If that were the case 2GUNS then ex-Mr Olympias would still look like they did when they competed, long after they stopped but they dont. That extra 20-40kg just comes off again - if they go absolutely clean. For some reason the muscle built on gear doesnt stay and neither does their strength. A friend of mine spoke once of seeing Flex W struggling to deadlift 180kg for example. I dont know the theory behind it but only what Ive seen. Men who were strong and muscular when they were young, not wimping out but doing the big 3 lifts as the base - deadlifts, squats and bench - and who still lift weights today are still thick and powerful men and they dont need gear to be that way. None of us deny that gear works, that you will build muscle, it just isnt muscle you will keep.

[IronGame]

If that were the case 2GUNS then ex-Mr Olympias would still look like they did when they competed, long after they stopped but they dont. That extra 20-40kg just comes off again - if they go absolutely clean. For some reason the muscle built on gear doesnt stay and neither does their strength. A friend of mine spoke once of seeing Flex W struggling to deadlift 180kg for example. I dont know the theory behind it but only what Ive seen. Men who were strong and muscular when they were young, not wimping out but doing the big 3 lifts as the base - deadlifts, squats and bench - and who still lift weights today are still thick and powerful men and they dont need gear to be that way. None of us deny that gear works, that you will build muscle, it just isnt muscle you will keep.

Agreed, but also realise no ex-MR O still lives the lifestyle they once did, massive amounts of Kcal, intence training, active recovery (massage, ATR etc) it takes alot more than "gear" to maintain that sort of lean mass.

[Dale]

too true

[Marcus]

2guns I can't explain why I am just speaking from my personal experience.

[2guns]

i see wat u both mean now to some degree

[mr natural]

hmmm i think you guys have brought up an interesting subject here.

from my experience you do lose quite a bit of muscle and strenght coming off even with the correct PCT.

before i took any hrt i sat around 100kgs b/f around 12-13% now after a good 4-5 odd cycles it seams to sit around 107-110kgs at around the same b/f level off cycle.

i think my natural test levels will support this muscle mass but not much more.

I agree that if you build mass and strength earlier on naturally then its more likely to be supported by your body.Just look at what happens as you get older and your testosterone levels drop,so does strenght and muscle mass.

relate this to on and off cycle.

However if your body does not have a good natural level of testosterone and other muscle/strenght building hormones and mechanisums then your going to be fighting an up hill battle trying to build a good level of mass and HRT maybe the only option.

Generally though most males should be able to build muscle and strength well through the ages of there late teens to late 20's off there own natural levels and maintain it till their levels start declining later in life.

In saying all that i have only seen a few rare expections that look like they have been on something but have not.

Most guys do not have the natural hormone levels to build stacks of muscle.

[Marcus]

Nice post mr natural, you put what I was thinking into words.

I guess that perfectly illustrates the need for a decent PCT. Also the need to get bloods done in between each cycle to ensure your natural test levels are rebounding.

[Dale]

those some big guns you must have dale 40kg curls , can we see some pics big fulla

here is a pic, not very impresssive, had to take it myself and did you know you actually have to stop and hold it still to get the digital to focus!...the least impressive part is how damn dirty my mirrors are!!! ASHLEY...clean the bloody mirrors!!!! :pfft: :pfft: :pfft:

[mr natural]

those some big guns you must have dale 40kg curls , can we see some pics big fulla

here is a pic, not very impresssive, had to take it myself and did you know you actually have to stop and hold it still to get the digital to focus!...the least impressive part is how damn dirty my mirrors are!!! ASHLEY...clean the bloody mirrors!!!! :pfft: :pfft: :pfft:

.

[Dale]

you know my offer MrN, anyday, anyplace, anywhere, anytime i'll take a drug test, but it could show up positive for T-MAX, TRI-SPORT and a good dose of HARDEN UP Protein! and there is nothing impressive about 40kg curls...give us a few months of consistent training after i get out of the gym business in June and it should be back to a bit more respectable weights :nod:

[mr natural]

you know my offer MrN, anyday, anyplace, anywhere, anytime i'll take a drug test, but it could show up positive for T-MAX, TRI-SPORT and a good dose of HARDEN UP Protein! and there is nothing impressive about 40kg curls...give us a few months of consistent training after i get out of the gym business in June and it should be back to a bit more respectable weights :nod:

lol i'm just winding you up mate, clam down you big angry fella

ps i just had a go at curling my 40's, not pretty but do-able on a wing an a swing,oh where can i get my hands on some of that harden up protein?lol

[Dale]

You didn't fall for that photo did you MrN...I pulled the "special" dumbbell out for a photo opportunity, the one made of plastic! :pfft:

[mr natural]

ah the old plastic d/b trick. i should have known!