The training-to-failure axiom

[Cornfed]

It seems to be generally accepted as axiomatic in weight training circles that muscle groups should be broken down to the maximum extent possible during a workout and then left to rest until they have fully recovered before training again. However, is this necessarily the case? Olympic lifters don't train this way and nor apparently do most men in prison, yet many of them are quite muscular. Hence I thought I would experiment with doing a full body workout in the major exercises three times a week without going near failure in any set. So far, in the third week of this program, I seem to be making gains after a long fallow period. It might be worth others giving such a program a try.

[deegee]

I dont train to failure, come close somedays I guess but not intentionaly, sometimes I cant get a last rep or 2 out but then I stop , rest and change excerise. I I can get all the reps out I dont carry on till I cant.

[jono]

ive always trained to failure. its always worked for me

[spartacus]

Cornfed, r u talking about HIT (High Intensity Training)? ...which is sumthin more than just regular training 2 failure ...

http://www.davedraper.com/HIT-HD-primer.html

[Growth]

I usually train to failure simpley because i am trying to better a previous effort, weither that be getting an extra rep or two, or upping the weight.

I have tried training not going to failure and i also had some success with that. I think there are some benefits of not going to failure such as decresed recover time etc.

If anything it would be worth giving a go just to give your muscles something new. I think mixing up your routine is always a good idea, and infact this may be where some of your gains are coming from cornfed, a simple change up may be adding some new stimulus for growth.

[bleat]

ive always trained to failure. its always worked for me

If you've always done the same thing how do you know it's the most effective way for you to train?

[jono]

ive always trained to failure. its always worked for me

If you've always done the same thing how do you know it's the most effective way for you to train?

to be honest i dont know. what i do know im gaining quite fast. everyone talks about training this and that... blah blah reps and failure etc. honestly i think its more about the diet than the training.

[Marcus]

to be honest i dont know. what i do know im gaining quite fast. everyone talks about training this and that... blah blah reps and failure etc. honestly i think its more about the diet than the training.

I believe the same. As long as you progress in your workouts.

[muffinman]

firstly most guys in prison wouldnt know a dumb bell from a chocolate lamington, when i was a prison officer watching crims workout was as entertaining as watching a kitten chase a leaky cow. they got the big head syndrome and they are only well built in the movies, there were one or two that actually new what they were doing,

ive always trained to failure, when i first stepped into the gym about 9-10 years ago i weighed a whopping 78 kg's, it took a while and alot of work but got up to 118 kgs through training to failure, yeah i carried a bit of fat but still had a flat stomach and a narow waist, so its not like i had a chubby thing going on, biceps got to 20 inches and there was no fat on those puppies.

so basically god bless training to failure.

[deegee]

I wouldnt have thought the prison diet was good enough to pile on any really big muscle mass, most of those guys are all just bench press and arm curl guys anyway not real bodybuilders

[Growth]

Hey muffinman, which prison did you used to be a guard at?

[muffinman]

have worked at rimutaka, arohata and crawford

[deegee]

All the wellington prisons eh and the womens too. I take it you are in some other line of work now? still security?

[muffinman]

yup have worked in all three, arohata scary, the women in there certainly are not shy about telling you what they want to do with you.

nah i am a machine operator now.

[ExpensiveUrine]

Basically when you're training to concentric failure, on a regular basis, you're damaging your central nervous system. CNS recovery is much more prolonged than your typical microtrauma in the muscle hence a period of low intensity is a must after high intensity work.

I'm not going to discuss K+/Ca++ ions, ECC, neuromuscular junction, ect.

I don't want to make it seem like I'm bashing concentric failure. I'm saying that you don't have to take it to the max to see results.

Concentric failure is a TOOL that must be used on occasion, not all the time. Progressive Overload can be achieved without failure.

Concentric failure isn't a requirement for getting bigger since it doesn't directly cause hypertrophic increases.

[Growth]

Even though CNS has a longer period of recovery then muscular trauma, over time it will adapt. IMO training your CNS to take a beating every once in awhile is better in the long run as long than saying, hey, im not going to train to failure because i dont want to put any stress on my CNS.

After all muscle strength is your ability to recruit motor units x size of the muscle fibers. So you could have huge muscles but if you havent learned how to fire shit all muscle neurons then your going to be weak.

[ExpensiveUrine]

Even though CNS has a longer period of recovery then muscular trauma, over time it will adapt. IMO training your CNS to take a beating every once in awhile is better in the long run as long than saying, hey, im not going to train to failure because i dont want to put any stress on my CNS.

After all muscle strength is your ability to recruit motor units x size of the muscle fibers. So you could have huge muscles but if you havent learned how to fire shit all muscle neurons then your going to be weak.

Like I said I'm not bashing the idea of training to concentric failure. I'm bashing the idea of training to failure ON A REGULAR BASIS. Training to the maximum now and then is not a bad thing. It is apparent that your CNS will get damaged in the process of training, however there is no need for us to f*ck it up completely which will lead to overtraining in the long run, for example, a loss of motivation/will to train.

I agree with you that the aim of pure strength training is to improve the neural components of strength production. Which is why I made a point that training to concentric failure doesn't cause direct hypertrophic increases.

[Ash]

Like I said I'm not bashing the idea of training to concentric failure. I'm bashing the idea of training to failure ON A REGULAR BASIS. Training to the maximum now and then is not a bad thing.

I've got two questions for you:

How often do you think it's possible to train to failure without damaging the CNS?

How do you suggest people cycle their intensity levels?

Thanks

Ash

[ExpensiveUrine]

How often do you think it's possible to train to failure without damaging the CNS?

The solution can be as simple as making most of your workouts in a non-failing zone, and taking every 3rd or 4th workout to the max.

Ratio of Perceived Exertion (RPE) depends on athletes feedback on how his performance is going. Let's say the scale is from 1 - 10. This RPE would correspond to the arousal state of the athlete(you). Basically what this is saying is that you use your own feedback to manage your training.

1=Least taxing.

10=Most taxing.

1-3=Low Effort.

4-6=Mod. Effort.

7-10=Heavy/Hard Effort.

So another solution would be to 'build up' your RPE over several weeks and then allowing recovery/deconditioning,ect.

[in previous posts I mentioned cycling your training by allowing low intensity work to come after high intensity work.]

It may look something like this.

Week1 = 5-6 RPE

W2 = 6-8 RPE

W3 = 8-10 RPE (concentric failure)

W4 = < 4 RPE (deconditioning/recovery).

Obviously you'll have to tweak volume/intensity/frequency to your own needs/responces.

All this stuff above links into the concept of PERIODIZATION.

I suggest you research this concept thoroughly to get a better understanding of the subject and maximise your training.

How do you suggest people cycle their intensity levels?

Through a form of Periodized training.

[Ash]

I suggest you research this concept thoroughly to get a better understanding of the subject and maximise your training.

Thanks for posting all that. I've been doing some reading recently about dual-factor training and thought you might have that in mind. I wanted to see if we were on the same page.

My current routine incorporates periods of reduced intensity although it is very much aimed at training to failure. I still can't quite get comfortable with the idea of "taking it easy" at gym for the majority of my training time. Having said that - I am always willing to look at and try different training methodologies and from what I've read, the training you're suggesting seems to work for just about every type of strength athlete. I definitely need to do a lot more research.

[deegee]

I like periods of reduced intensity, some days I struggle to lift what I have emanaged easily the week before, so I change tact and will try higher reps or slower reps. Over the years so many theories have come out and different traing pattterns, they com and go.

trying to just feel how my muscles respond on a day to day basis has become the most reliable method of training for me

[Ash]

I am re-awakening this old thread because I've noticed something about my training.

I pride myself on being able to generate a decent amount of intensity at gym and I can push my sets to the bitter end, without letting my form go to hell and cheating badly. I've made good overall progress on a low volume routine over the last 4-5 months but the bodypart that's made the best progress is the one that I never train to complete failure - my hamstrings.

I've got a lower back problem so I am very careful with stiff legged deadlifts - I push the workset hard but as soon as my form starts going bad, I stop. My other exercise for hams is sumo leg press - these are pushed really hard but it's not to absolute failure because I don't like getting stuck on the leg press with my dodgy knees.

Note that I only do a single workset for hamstrings, the others are just warm-ups and I don't generate any real intensity on them....so how the heck can 1 hard set without going to failure generate that much muscle growth?

It's so disconcerting that I am seriously thinking of trying 6-8 weeks of training everything else to the same intensity as I train hams to see what happens. :?

[waldo]

It's pretty obvious, that the failure axiom doesn't let people recover sufficiently. You made progress because you weren't overtraining said bodypart.

[Flex]

Hamstrings are made up predominantly of fast twitch muscle fibres and respond better to explosive work and low reps so this could be another reason why you are seeing results with your hammies. If you look at the hamstrings of a sprinter as opposed to a marathon runner you'll see why low reps are the best thing for them.

[waldo]

The way sprinters run versus marathoners has a lot to say regarding why their hammies are large. You should know this from your jacobs ladder days.