WILDBULL CREATINE ETHYL ESTER (CE2)

[nzidol]

Any thoughts on this product. Trying to figure out weather it is worth the money $105.00. Wondering if there is anything eles I could take instead.

[Paul]

Spend your money on food / protein powder

[Dumbelldog]

Spend your money on food / protein powder

:ditto:

[goinhard]

i spent alot of time looking at creatine studies, reports, medical journals and article on several forums and the end result was basically that there was litte to no advantage to be had by using any form of creatine other than pure medical grade monohydrate.

[Melbot]

Yeah there are so many different types of creatine available, I think the difference is quite small. I agree with paul protein and food. I have however enjoyed training with NO Xplode, which is a NO/ Creatine product. But thats a novelty.

[Mo250]

I'd stay away from CEE.

regular creatine mono is the way to go. Although I use dicreatine malate at the moment.

creatine-magnesium chelate could be considered as well.

[Pseudonym]

I'm using some effervescent stuff at the moment, because it wasn't much different in price to the non-fizzy creatine I was comparing it to.

To be honest, I'm not a huge fan of it. It's a pain to mix, because it frothes up and over the glass if you're not careful, and there's too much citric acid in it for my taste.

I'll be going back to plain ol' regular creatine once this is finished.

[michaelk]

Wild bull Creatine Ethyl Ester...as available from Elite Fitness stores differs from Creatine Monohydrate in that because of the Esterfication of the creatine there is an increase in the Passive permeation- basically the water drawn to the cell by the creatine does not sit outside the cell wall (creatine bloat) but is transferred into the cell where we use it for something other than hitting a new personal weight max on the scales (or am I the only one that does that?).

Also because the CEE is far more soluble than CM it requires less dosage to be effective, this is still of concern to many of our customers who are concerned with taking in too much creatine and it gives you your value for money as you tub will last longer ....and you don't get gritty bits of creatine in your mouth :cry:

[Flex]

Unfortunately I'm still to see any actual scientific data that esterified creatine is all it's cracked up to be. So far most of the evidence points to it being worse - converting to creatinine faster, and the potential for the ethyl alcohol to cause toxicity in the body.

[michaelk]

Unfortunately I'm still to see any actual scientific data that esterified creatine is all it's cracked up to be. So far most of the evidence points to it being worse - converting to creatinine faster, and the potential for the ethyl alcohol to cause toxicity in the body.

What is the conversion time from Creatine to Creatinine, and at what level of consumption is it suggested it becomes toxic?

[Mo250]

CEE is lipid soluble so it uses fat to get absorbed, but uptake into cells is independant of fat. Uptake and absorption are different. I would like to see some studies examining:

Rate of appearance in the blood...

Elevation of muscle Total CR, CP and free CR...

Its important to note that the point of CEE is not to keep the creatine stable in the low pH of the stomach - its to get it out of the GI tract as fast as possible and possibly bypass intestinal facilitated transport. (I have not read that there is creatine transport in the stomach, only in the intestine in humans.)

anyhow

Creatine is a must in my opinion and for a lot of different reasons:

Creatine = intracellular buffer of ADP = maintain ATP levels = maintain cellular processes that utilise ATP = maintain cell intergity

Creatine = cell volumisation = change in cytoplasmic to nuclear ratio (macromolecular dilution) = change in cellular energy kinetics = negative feedback to re-establish cytoplasmic to nuclear ratio = increase protein synthesis

Creatine = increase creatine kinase activity = stabilises mitochondrial cell membrane = less or no cell leakage of cytochrome C = less or no activation of capase casacde that results in cell apoptosis

Creatine = acts directly as intracellular antioxidant = less free radical damage

[Flex]

Care of Creapure.com ( http://www.creapure.com/index.php?id=23&L=1 ):

Creatine ester is a creatine monohydrate that has been esterified with either the alcohol methanol (creatine methyl ester) or ethanol (creatine ethyl ester).

After being absorbed by the body, creatine esters are split into creatine and the alcohol methanol or ethanol. This conversion occurs very quickly. Ten minutes after oral administration, the ester is no longer detectable and has been broken down completely into creatine, creatinine, and methanol or ethanol.

It has been shown that this breakdown takes place before it has been absorbed into the muscle cells.

Twelve percent of orally administered creatine ester is converted into creatinine after 30 minutes, and, in addition, esterification strongly promotes the conversion into creatinine. Creatinine is excreted via the kidneys. The alcohol—in the form of methanol or ethanol—needs to be detoxified by the liver. Methanol in particular is highly toxic and even small amounts can damage the nervous system.

There are no studies that prove that creatine esters enhance performance. It is especially significant that there is no indication that these esters have an advantage over pure creatine monohydrate.

------------------

Creatine ethyl ester rapidly degrades to creatinine in stomach acid

Child R1 and Tallon MJ2

1Department of Life Sciences, Kingston University, Penrhyn Rd, Kingston-upon-Thames, United Kingdom. 2University of Northumbria, Sport Sciences, Northumbria University, Northumberland Building, Newcastle upon Tyne, United Kingdom, DrChild@CR-Technologies.net

Creatine ethyl ester (CEE) is a commercially available synthetic creatine that is now widely used in dietary supplements. It comprises of creatine with an ethyl group attached and this molecular configuration is reported to provide several advantages over creatine monohydrate (CM). The Medical Research Institute (CA, USA) claim that the CEE in their product (CE2) provides greater solubility in lipids, leading to improved absorption. Similarly San (San Corporation, CA, USA) claim that the CEE in their product (San CM2 Alpha) avoids the breakdown of creatine to creatinine in stomach acids. Ultimately it is claimed that CEE products provide greater absorption and efficacy than CM. To date, none of these claims have been evaluated by an independent, or university laboratory and no comparative data are available on CEE and CM.

This study assessed the availability of creatine from three commercial creatine products during degradation in acidic conditions similar to those that occur in the stomach. They comprised of two products containing CEE (San CM2 Alpha and CE2) and commercially available CM (Creapure?). An independent laboratory, using testing guidelines recommended by the United States Pharmacopeia (USP), performed the analysis. Each product was incubated in 900ml of pH 1 HCL at 37? 1oC and samples where drawn at 5, 30 and 120 minutes. Creatine availability was assessed by immediately assaying for free creatine, CEE and the creatine breakdown product creatinine, using HPLC (UV)

After 30 minutes incubation only 73% of the initial CEE present was available from CE2, while the amount of CEE available from San CM2 Alpha was even lower at only 62%. In contrast, more than 99% of the creatine remained available from the CM product. These reductions in CEE availability were accompanied by substantial creatinine formation, without the appearance of free creatine. After 120minutes incubation 72% of the CEE was available from CE2 with only 11% available from San CM2 Alpha, while more than 99% of the creatine remained available from CM.

CEE is claimed to provide several advantages over CM because of increased solubility and stability. In practice, the addition of the ethyl group to creatine actually reduces acid stability and accelerates its breakdown to creatinine. This substantially reduces creatine availability in its esterified form and as a consequence creatines such as San CM2 and CE2 are inferior to CM as a source of free creatine.

This research was presented at the 4th Annual International Society of Sports Nutrition Conference (Las Vegas, USA).

---------------------

Creatine Ethyl-Ester Unstable, Say Researchers

New research shows that creatine ethyl-ester - a new but unproven version of the popular sports supplement creatine – does not work as well as regular creatine.

One of the most effective supplements for anyone who wants to boost their gym performance, creatine monohydrate is used regularly by athletes, bodybuilders and regular gym-goers. But while many companies have released different versions of creatine, which are supposed to work better than the standard product, very few of these new supplements have been studied in properly controlled clinical trials.

This latest research, conducted by a team of British scientists and presented at the 4th International Society of Sports Nutrition (ISSN) annual meeting in Las Vegas, is one of the first studies to put creatine ethyl-ester to the test.

Researchers Dr. Robert Child and Dr. Mark J Tallon compared two products containing creatine ethyl-ester with creatine monohydrate. Despite advertising claims to the contrary, Child and Tallon found that creatine ethyl-ester was actually less stable than regular creatine.

"We found that the addition of the ethyl group to creatine actually reduces acid stability and accelerates its breakdown to creatinine," says Tallon. "This substantially reduces creatine availability in its esterified form, which makes creatine ethyl-ester inferior to creatine monohydrate as a source of creatine."

"To date, no published study has shown that creatine ethyl-ester works any better than regular creatine," adds study co-author Dr. Robert Child. "In fact, our work shows that it’s less stable. Anyone should think twice about spending their money on this type of product."

Source

Child, R. & Tallon, M.J. (2007). Creatine ethyl ester rapidly degrades to creatinine in stomach acid. International Society of Sports Nutrition 4th Annual Meeting

For additional information, please contact CR-Technologies today

http://www.cr-technologies.net/inthenews.html

------------------------

My opinion of this would normally be to take information like this with a grain of salt, or in other words try and figure out what agenda is behind the people publishing this info. Cr-Technologies are releasing a "new" creatine delivery system so it is probably in their interest to try and make CEE look bad. (The Doctors conducting the study, Dr R. Child and Dr M. Tallon are on the advisory board for CR-Technologies™ so it isn't the most independant study around).

Creapure are probably the biggest producer of quality creatine monohydrate so they too have a vested interest. However if CEE was really as good as it is supposed to be, wouldn't Creapure (AlzChem Trostberg), being one of the worlds largest manufacturers of creatine, simply bring out their own CEE? I believe they would if they thought it was good. And as they said "There are no studies that prove that creatine esters enhance performance", and yet there's a study that show it isn't very good. The evidence is stacked against CEE at this point.