Assistance exercises on 5/3/1

[Pseudonym]

I thought I'd start a new topic on assistance exercises, so that we can go into more specifics without derailing the What bodybuilders can learn from powerlifting topic.

 

So I've just started Jim Wender's 5/3/1 powerlifting routine with the "Boring But Big" bodybuilding twist...

 

Example 1

Day One

• Press – 5/3/1
• Press – 5 sets of 10 reps
• Lat work – 5 sets of 10 reps (I presume this means "lateral work" for shoulders, not a lat pulldown, etc)

Day Two

• Deadlift – 5/3/1
• Deadlift – 5 sets of 10 reps
• Abs – 5 sets

Day Three

• Bench Press – 5/3/1
• Bench Press – 5 sets of 10 reps
• Lat work – 5 sets of 10 reps

Day Four

• Squat – 5/3/1
• Squat – 5 sets of 10 reps
• Abs – 5 sets

Example 2

Day One

• Press – 5/3/1
• Bench Press – 5 sets of 10 reps
• Lat work – 5 sets of 10 reps

Day Two

• Deadlift – 5/3/1
• Squat – 5 sets of 10 reps
• Abs – 5 sets

Day Three

• Bench Press – 5/3/1
• Press – 5 sets of 10 reps
• Lat work – 5 sets of 10 reps

Day Four

• Squat – 5/3/1
• Deadlift – 5 sets of 10 reps
• Abs – 5 sets

 

I decided to go for example 2, because that hit each muscle twice a week. Although now I'm wondering if example 1 would be better - it's the same amount of work either way, but I don't find the muscles ever really get fatigued when the work is split across multiple days.

 

However, here's what I'm struggling to get my head around... There's only one set in the entire workout that goes to failure (that's the final set of the 5/3/1 sets). I get that this is where the progressive overload builds strength. But in that case, shouldn't I also be taking the assistance exercises to failure - even if it's only to fatigue-failure, not strength-failure? There also don't seem to be many assistance exercises.

 

So far, I am doing the program exactly as prescribed - I figure you need to test it properly before deviating from the plan. But how do you guys run the assistance work?

[GyzzBrah]

Nah he means lat work.

 

In my (little) experience, 531 is shit and will leave you stagnant if not behind in progress while you spend the next few cycles lifting shit for shit volume and intensity that you would otherwise be able to rep out on a normal bodybuilding workout.

 

Not what bbers can learn from powerlifters, but what powerlifters can re learn from bbers, which is just go in gym and train hard and f*ck your percentages and fancy periodised program.

 

Like honestly just go and bench heavy, squat heavy etc stick to a rep range or whatever then do accessory work.

 

Jim wendler wrote 5/3/1 initially as a off season maintanance program for elite equipped plers transitioning to unequipped I think. Crap program anyway.

 

Just do Jono's program or whatever.

 

Edit: you just brought back old memories of skinny tendonitis me going to the gym with shit clothes with my little red notebook with a myriad of percentages and gaining nothing.

[maccaz]

1. Gyzz isnt really qualified to give advice as he hasn't done any particular program properly for an extended period of time. im not really qualified either but more so.

 

2. try get off the mindset of hitting x muscle x times a week kind of thing, these are mostly compound movements and each muscle will be inevitably used without even realising it a lot of the time. 

 

also try forget about going to failure etc, just do program as prescribed and even if it doesnt feel like its working, it is

 

iv put 50 on my deadlift, 4 on my squat, 25 on my bench since october and i havent gone to failure in training ever really, only time iv gone to failure is when iv gone off the program stupidly

[maccaz]

gyzz, just because you cant follow something as you're told because you're a little brat doesnt mean it wont work for other people.

jonos programs and 5/3/1 and sheiko and whatever other program, they are all equally good for people at yours and my level (we are shitter than novice). whatever we are gonna do is gonna work as long as we do it correctly.

 

 

you didnt follow jonos programs correctly so you cant vouch for it as you have never done it, so i bet you didnt follow 5/3/1 correctly.

these are tried and proven recipes to give results, so if they dont work for you, there is a missing link caused by you, not by the program

[GyzzBrah]

Ofcourse I can vouch for Jonos program its very good. Im talking about 2 years ago me doing 531.

 

You will struggle to make progress if at all on 531 because at the last week of the program, the single that you do is essentially 80% of your 1rm. You have to wait 3 weeks to get there. Thats not any fking progress.

You would rather take that 80% and rep it at the very start of your program.

Then once your done with the useless deload, you add <5 kgs to your maxes and start again.

 

If you just go gym and train hard you can add 5 kgs whenever

[maccaz]

i have a good friend who is getting very very good results from 5/3/1 bbb. natty, 82kg or something and went from not lifting to ~500 total in a year so it does work.

[GyzzBrah]

If you follow it for a whole year you can add an easy 60+kgs to your squat.

 

 

 

But we only follow programs for a few days here br0

[maccaz]

If you follow it for a whole year you can add an easy 60+kgs to your squat.

 

 

 

But we only follow programs for a few days here br0

i*

[crazyfacials]

 

iv put 50 on my deadlift, 4 on my squat, 25 on my bench since october and i havent gone to failure in training ever really, only time iv gone to failure is when iv gone off the program stupidly

Those are pretty good numbers bro especially since October (I am also guessing you're meant to say 40 on squat?)  there are lots of templates of the 5/3/1 did you too follow the big but boring? I did the program a long time ago too and at that time it gave me great results ...not 100% sure but from memory the little pdf booklet didn't really go into detail about assistance exercises, just said don't f*ck around with the set reps of the main 4 lifts it's programmed around 

[maccaz]

Those are pretty good numbers bro especially since October (I am also guessing you're meant to say 40 on squat?) there are lots of templates of the 5/3/1 did you too follow the big but boring? I did the program a long time ago too and at that time it gave me great results ...not 100% sure but from memory the little pdf booklet didn't really go into detail about assistance exercises, just said don't f*ck around with the set reps of the main 4 lifts it's programmed around

Nah bro i didnt follow 5/3/1 but just dropping numbers to prove point that sometimes programming is a lot better than what gyzz says (just do whatever) Most of my progress was from sheiko but im sure 5/3/1 or 5x5 or whatever wouldve been just as good

[Hitro]

531 is a decent and well proven programme, worth doing if you've maxed out on the likes of strong lifts. It's set up for repeated use tho, not just 1 cycle.

 

Have used it a few times and got good increases in strength, just takes a bit of time, especially if you do the deloads (which I found werent needed everytime - maybe after cycles 3 and 5 onwards.

 

In terms of assistance work, there is another more hypertrophy focused one too. Found that pretty good but the boring but big approach is simple as, but repetitive.

[Hitro]

 

If you just go gym and train hard you can add 5 kgs whenever

 

that's newbie gains mate. After a while it doesnt come so easy and proper strength based programme like 531 will really help.

[Realtalk]

Lat work is Lattisimus Dorsi work yeah so lat pulldown or pull ups or pull overs. Having strong lats is really important for keeping your strong and tight in the squat, benching they play a big part once you know how to use them, and deadlift having strong lats will help with lockout. People who can't lock out often have weak lats. If you read my journal I do a lot of pulldowns this is to get my lats bigger and stronger.

[Realtalk]

5/3/1 is the most popular template in the world. Its works and its proven to work. Just like a diet or a training split you can pick apart a strength program as well. Everyone has different opinions on what is good and what is not which is fine. One thing you cant argue with is that it's simple. Being simple makes it really easy to gauge progress and also allows you to pinpoint perhaps what isn't working. Where people go wrong in all programs is setting there maxes too high this purely ego based. What happens then is people's reps and percentages are not accurate and you start missing lifts or falling short in the sets, because you are too weak for the demand of the program. What singles you did in a comp, after a weeks deload and thriving off the adrenaline of comp day ARE NOT YOUR TRAINING MAXES! A training Max is a 1rm you can do any day in the gym no matter what is going on in your life on any given day. Stress, breaking up with your mrs, your dad is really sick on hospital, you got busy and didn't get all your meals in that day, you crashed your fucking car I dunno but there should be no doubts that you would miss that. That is the number you base your reps and percentages off. I'm not saying to make it easy but I'm saying be realistic. If you are failing sets in your trainings then it just roots the whole program and you are right gyzz, it will be shit and won't work.

As for assistance I thrash my assistance. If I had 5x10 on something one week I might do 5 heavy sets with long rest other week I might do super sets with the other assistance exercise. Otherwise might do a a big drop set. I think of my main lifts as building strength and my assistance is building muscle.

[Pseudonym]

Yeah, the thing I do like about 5/3/1 is that it's keeping me accountable. There's no more "Oh, I think that feels like a heavy enough weight today..." - which, without a training partner or log to keep pushing against, meant my weights were gradually slipping backwards.

 

In terms of assistance work, there is another more hypertrophy focused one too. Found that pretty good but the boring but big approach is simple as, but repetitive.

I saw this one - seems pretty similar to BBB, but with more volume. I like that.

 

So do you go pretty hard with the assistance stuff too?

 

 

As for assistance I thrash my assistance. If I had 5x10 on something one week I might do 5 heavy sets with long rest other week I might do super sets with the other assistance exercise. Otherwise might do a a big drop set. I think of my main lifts as building strength and my assistance is building muscle.

See, that's what I was wondering. So it's acceptable to go all out on the assistance stuff? I'm not suggesting anything too crazy, but a bit of extra intensity on assistance work (maybe even to failure here and there) can't hurt, right?!

 

Even though Maccaz had gains without doing that, but I can't help feeling that training harder is better, provided it's not getting in the way of recovery.

[Realtalk]

Yeah I train my assiatance stuff with high intensity bro, it's important not to just go through the motions with this. You can afford to go hard on it too. I mean 5 sets of lat pull down never beat anyone up. The assistance is essentially there to keep you working, to build supporting muscles that will help you in the lifts, build bigger muscles. Squatting, benching, ohp, deadlifting heavy for over an hour everyday isn't sustainable and you will just beat yourself up and end up getting injuried or not progressing as you should. This is what the assistance stuff is useful for - getting the work/volume in but leaving you fresh for the next day. People are calling it powerbuilding these days but the concept is nothing new

[Hitro]

 

I saw this one - seems pretty similar to BBB, but with more volume. I like that.

 

So do you go pretty hard with the assistance stuff too?

 

Yep did that one actually but did the days in opposite order as always have tshirt Fridays at work so it just feels right to train biceps that day rather than legs

[ThreeWhiteLights]

Not what bbers can learn from powerlifters, but what powerlifters can re learn from bbers, which is just go in gym and train hard and f*ck your percentages and fancy periodised program.

 

 

 

Edit: you just brought back old memories of skinny tendonitis me going to the gym with shit clothes with my little red notebook with a myriad of percentages and gaining nothing.

Lmao love this guy 

[maccaz]

Lmao love this guy 

 

eternally face palming at everything he says

[maccaz]

How are you finding it Pseudo

?

I keep hearing good things from people doing 5/3/1

[Pseudonym]

Yeah, I'm loving it - now that I've added the extra assistance work.

 

I'm putting size back on again (partly that's from a slow bulk, but I'm still reasonably lean... lean enough for winter, anyway) and I'm getting stronger, although it's still early days for that.

 

I just started the third 4-week cycle last night, and it felt quite heavy, so it'll be interesting to see how this round goes.

[Spacebound]

Yeah, I'm loving it - now that I've added the extra assistance work.

I'm putting size back on again (partly that's from a slow bulk, but I'm still reasonably lean... lean enough for winter, anyway) and I'm getting stronger, although it's still early days for that.

I just started the third 4-week cycle last night, and it felt quite heavy, so it'll be interesting to see how this round goes.

You should make a journal srs

It's always interesting to read/watch others progress

[Pseudonym]

I would, but tbh after I've posted in all the topics here, any Gymnation time I have left needs to go into development. If I tried to keep a daily journal, I wouldn't last a week before I fell behind with the updates.

I do keep an irregular journal though, and post training summaries and progress pics at various intervals. I plan on posting another progress update at the end of this cycle.