deep/parallel squats

[fng]

I've been trying to clean up my form on some exercises. And seemed to have hit a stale mate with my squats. Front squats are great and could easily do box squats, being able to get well below parralle. Rear squats I can only comfortable get about as low as the photo even with just the bar, thinking it will get better as my abb gets smaller and out of the way. 

Tonight I got one of the other guys to video me for a few reps to see how I was going .... Nearing the end of my workout one of the Gym staff trainers was doing the rounds, so I questioned him about it. Video played and back into the rack with just the bar, front great. Rear to get much past the photos depth my ankles want roll out liffting my heals. 

He suggested and we tried two different height blocks under my heals, problem solved and depth/comfort great. He then showed me some calf/achilles streching to work on and a few tweaks to my calf exercises. So hopefully better gains to follow.

The question is - any other helpfull pointers tips etc

[jimmybro1]

Sounds like he gave you some pretty solid advice already. To add to it I would stretch your hip flexors often to get more flexablity about the hips also running shoes aren't the best to squat in. You will be better off with some type of flat sole shoes like a chuck taylor.

I once tried squatting in running shoes and felt so unstable about my ankle, feels like it creates a moment about then putting unnecessary strain in the area. 

[fng]

Interesting on the shoes, i've been considering trying my timberland tramping shoes which are high top and a very good sole

[Leeroid]

If ankle mobility is your main issue then a pair of weightlifting shoes with an elevated heel will help a lot. Does the same thing as plates under your heels

[teamfatboy]

hmmm... apart from trying raised heels (plates until you decide you need lifting shoes), the thing that struck me was you're 'too far forward'.  

Ideally, you want the bar to remain centred over a point equidistant between heel and ball of foot, and from the pic it looks like yours is closer to the ball of the foot. 

So, try to 'sit back' a little further, and keep the chest more upright.

Also, force the knees out some more.  Your feet are at the right angle, aim to keep the knees from drifting inwards. 

By doing that, you keep the hip open and make it easier to get depth.

JB1's advice about the swap to a chuck taylor or similar is well worth it, for two reasons: the sole is far less compressive, which makes for greater stability as much as anything, and they're flat, which will help with things like deadlifts.  The high-top knock-offs from the Warehouse are a great start. 

for shoes with a heel, try http://www.industrialathletic.com/shop/Apparel/Shoes+-+by+Style/Weightlifting.html?gclid=CLG3x4e7-L4CFQ1xvAodUFcAqA

 

 

[fng]

cheers all 

[Realtalk]

Yeah what TFB said that's good advice! I would try put bar lower down back looks like it's on your neck lol but that might be angle of photo. Good advice above, try all that and let us know. Nailing good squat techique feels good!

[Cameron_R]

So, try to 'sit back' a little further, and keep the chest more upright.

FNG,

A simple technique I was told to help with this just to look up. Pick a spot on the ceiling infront of you close by and actively watch it during your squat.

This helps to force your head up and stretches out your neck, which then pushes out your chest and forces you to sit back into the squat.

Give it a try.

[fng]

cheers

In the video I seem to be good position/form wise for the first half/two thirds, then I go forward.

Apparently my form for my front squat was great, and with the taller heal blocks for rear ( 38mm ) 

The lower blocks 16mm felt good untill the very bottom. 

I will probably make some more blocks ( 25,32mm ) and take them to try as the 38mm felt oddly high. Hopfully I get more flexible over time, or a pair of leg day shoes may be on order

If i wasn't such a techno phobe I'd post the video for your weekly laugh. to get it off my phone to computor only works via dropbox for me. But that said I have never tried to post a video of any sort, and aren't obviously on you tube.

I'll get a new video next leg session and take a screen shot for all your critique/help

[Dinahlady]

Work on pushing your knees outward as you are squatting, this will make your glute activate more and contribute to a stronger and create more room for a deeper squat. 

Make sure you're doing good dlute accessory work like glute bridges, single leg glute bridges, Hip thurusts, and stretching your hip flexors, adductors and working your knee into external rotation with stretches like pigeon. 

[Dinahlady]

cheers

In the video I seem to be good position/form wise for the first half/two thirds, then I go forward.

 

The "going forward" is becasue either from the top of the movement or when you get two thirds down you let your knees relax inward (even if this is not noticable) and so your glutes are not working, theres "no room" and nowhere else to go downward as your femur is in the way and your glutes are not active - causing your body to move forward for your quads to take more load. At the point that you are about to go forwards if you instead push your knees outward then you will create the room to move down instead of forward. Pushing your knees outwards motion is done by your glute. 

if this is too difficult you will need to look at mobility and flexibility as well as glute work I mentioned above.

This is a really common issue so don't feel too bad about it! 

 

[fng]

Thanks google images is my friend.

For the bridges do you recomend a band as well just above knee ?

Funny you mention glutes. Although lately I have been mentally concerntrating on my quads and the push out, I centainly haven't been getting the all over burn that I used to get when training in the 80's/90's. I remember not being able to sit down properly for a few days after, let alone getting up off the dunny.

Great the toilet is down stairs as well now, just my quads have been bad enough.

You all have given me a lot to work on, I'm thinking I might book a PT session for the next leg day.

I'll have a chat with the trainers during the week

[blahman]

You exactly like I did until 6 months ago. I worked on getting a lower bar position on the back which required a bit of pain in the shoulders at first and lots of stretching. This moved the bar more over the mid to back part of the foot at the bottom. I worked on hip flexor stretching and groin stretches for mobility. Finally I worked on keeping tension going down into the hole - pushing outwards and sideways in a static postion then using the bar then with weight, This brought my glutes into the pattern to do alot more work. I still have a butt wink at the bottom but working on this.  Hope this helps as if you were like me you probably are more used to doing a half good morning squat combo that a full deep squat.

[fng]

Well that was very interesting - had a training session with Bronson Christian tonight with a look in by Keegan Braddeley.

Yes I can go parallel

lots of reps with not a lot of weight looking at form and faults

I have a bit of work to do, I needed the 38mm blocks, but as I got fatiged, or we went heavier I had a tendancy to lift my right heel, a minor knee twinge inward and twist.

At the end of the session with just the bar I would start square and finish approximately 150/200mm forward on the right hand side at the bar.

We tried a bit of ancillary work with barbell hack squats and a variation of stiffs/roman deads to help get me feeling/engaging with my glutes and hams more.

So I will have to keep working on flexibility and form for a while and the strength will come

[Bruce Al]

Watch ya knees yo. Hate running shoes... Even for running

[Mcmass]

I would suggest not doing any back squats and work on other exercises for leg strength until you can get more mobility and squat correctly.

Those last 2 photos you posted show a very dodgy squat and is putting a huge amount of stress on your patella tendons that at some point will create issues.

Find a good trainer or spend some time researching squat mobility and do these exercises at least 4-5 times per week. If your current trainer has you doing this, and is working you anywhere near fatigue then they don't know what they are doing and should not be pretending like they do.

If you continue squating in this fashion it will also just be teaching your body incorrect patterns of movement that will then have to be un-learned.

All the best:)

[fng]

Fair enough

I started this thread to get it right, never had knee issues and don't want any going forward.

Meeting with Bobby Kazemi after he's over the waikato comps push, so will have a talk with him about my form.

So whats dodgy in the photo's ( other than me ), what looks wrong ?

Cheers

[Gym rat]

Another option would be ditch doing barbell squats for a while a replace them with smith machine squats which would help you work of your form

[Leeroid]

The height of those blocks are just ridiculous. While I believe it's fine for knees to go over the toes (mine do and knees are perfectly fine), you must have serious ankle mobility issues if you require blocks that high in order to hit parallel. I'm not sure that I would do heavy squats with such a high block. Just seems too unstable.

 

I'd say keep doing them but work on your ankles to try and reduce the height of the blocks.

[Mcmass]

Another option would be ditch doing barbell squats for a while a replace them with smith machine squats which would help you work of your form

The smith machine will not help you with form for back squats.

fng wrote:

 

So whats dodgy in the photo's ( other than me ), what looks wrong ?

Cheers

[fng]

Yup flexibility is sh*t, and needs alot of work.

Blocks are 38mm, needed to be that high to stop heels lifting ( flixibility ).

Got ya about knees. 

Only been doing bar only, and with 5kg a side. Anything over and i'm unstable in the push up. Feels weird after being able to do a 160kg half squat. But like some have said it took them 6 months to get it working right.

Been trying barbell hack squats to get the sit down & pelvic up mind set. 

Front squats feel very comfortable, but who knows what they really look like.

Good bit of weekend viewing there, thanks

 

 

[Realtalk]

Get rid of those stilts for a start. Post a profile shot video of ur squat in bare feet be able to tell what ur problem is straight away. It's all just flexibility after that it's bar position then after that it's breaking the lift down into stages and checking off each stage as you do it, like a "toet"... So you might check these in diff stages feet, chest up, back straight, sitting back, drive thru heels, chest up, hips thru or something like that. So you can practise it in stages without the bar also on those suspension training systems like a TRX and use other tools to help you like boxes and thin wright plates under your heels.

smith machine is shit. Period.

[fng]

well Iv'e watched quite a few of the starrett videos and if where starting at feet then yes the 'tight ankles/ feat' video was an eyeopener. my ankles flexibility make the ex marines look great.

I tried a squat positon standing with my feet parelle, and jesus it's bad, my right knee doesn't even want to stay over it let alone out. So one of many starting steps to regaining flexibility.

I will see if i can do a photo later, for your saturday laughs.

It's been quite interesting with trying to get more mobile, my other hobbies are flying gliders and sailing. with the flying you have rudder peadals which are quite close together. on a long flight my ankles would get sore on the outer sides, now I can see why. today I had a three hour flight on the west coast and it was surprisingly better already

[fng]

laugh time

so squating down with feet near paralle and heels on the ground, the first thing I notice is my right knee tweek inwards minorly.

If I try and squat deeper my right foot rotates out and knee in further.

I notice tightness in my ankle in the forward to outside quarter

If i have my feet apart at a more realistic width the tightness roates a little more forward on the right ankle

[teamfatboy]

laugh time

so squating down with feet near paralle and heels on the ground, the first thing I notice is my right knee tweek inwards minorly.

If I try and squat deeper my right foot rotates out and knee in further.

I notice tightness in my ankle in the forward to outside quarter

If i have my feet apart at a more realistic width the tightness roates a little more forward on the right ankle

Ok... Feet position - my first reaction was "why parallel?" - and everything I checked (including Mark Rippetoe's "Starting Strength" , which is a go-to book for technique) says that a good starting position in finding where your individual set-up should be is: feet shoulder width apart, and toed-out, at an angle approx 45 degrees (but anywhere between 30-60 is equally fine).  Start from there, and fine tune - if, for instance a legacy injury like a sprained ankle means one should be turned out a little more, that's fine. 

Hard to tell whether your feet are the right distance apart, but that parallel is almost certainly part of the problem.  

Keep at it, and good luck.