Cheat meals

[Pseudonym]

Topic split from Rapz's First competition log.

[Rebel101]

Hi Rapz just thought I would touch base and help you get through this period if I can.

The cheat meal you had will have set you back about 10 days (literally) which at this point in time is okay you are on track anyway, but it will also skrew your head up if you let it.

It has taken 5 days for the extra carbs to fully get out of your system and then another three days for the reestablishment of your mind set as to where you are physically at this point in time. Remember I spoke about the fine line that you walk between coping with diet and training and not coping with it, at between 8 and 10 days you are back at that point again.

Only after 10 days will you now start to feel like you are moving ahead again (this is really only a mind set thing as you are moving ahead all the time) its just that until this 10 days are over you will not be able to see it.

It is really important that you hold this 10 days together to get on top of it and move forward with more positivity, do not change anything about your program as it is not the right time to be evaluating anything right now.

With regard to the hunger cravings imo the best thing will be to back off some of your cardio (this is what really stimulates your appetite.

This is as much a mental game as it is a physical one, you have a plan it is a good one and you are looking great, stick to the plan.

[DIANABOL]

 

The cheat meal you had will have set you back about 10 days (literally) which at this point in time is okay you are on track anyway, but it will also skrew your head up if you let it.

It has taken 5 days for the extra carbs to fully get out of your system and then another three days for the reestablishment of your mind set as to where you are physically at this point in time. Remember I spoke about the fine line that you walk between coping with diet and training and not coping with it, at between 8 and 10 days you are back at that point again.

 

 

Where on earth do you get this rubbish from about setting him back 10 days!!! 

You realize he is enhanced right?

If anything he is probably leaner after having that cheat meal than anything else...

 

 

Cheat meals are good for you bro - keep using them. 

[Rebel101]

Cheat meals are as you say "cheat" meals, it is always better if you dont need to use them as there is more control in the plan, that is why you have a plan.

As I said -

"Only after 10 days will you now start to feel like you are moving ahead again (this is really only a mind set thing as you are moving ahead all the time) its just that until this 10 days are over you will not be able to see it."

Enhanced or not cutting up is a process that plays games in your mind, that it is why it is always best to have another person that has experience to watch on and keep you grounded in reality.

Pushing the body physically to the boundaries of endurance, again enhanced or not (lets be honest enhanced doesnt make it any easier), means that there is always that zone when as athletes we can and do go too far and push beyond our limits (this is when as Rapz said that if it endangers relationships sometimes it may not be worth it). Controlling that zone is where optimal gains will occur but it is difficult to control.

There are not many people who push that hard that they reach this zone but when you do you will know it. The bodies response to reaching the zone and not controlling it is rather like yoyo dieting (just more advanced like cheat meals or cheat days) it is better to try and understand the process that is happening so that you do not punish oneself and repeat the process.

As I have said this is just my experience, I am not here to justify myself just help if I can and its wanted.

[DIANABOL]

Cheat meals are as you say "cheat" meals, it is always better if you dont need to use them as there is more control in the plan, that is why you have a plan.

As I said -

"Only after 10 days will you now start to feel like you are moving ahead again (this is really only a mind set thing as you are moving ahead all the time) its just that until this 10 days are over you will not be able to see it."

Enhanced or not cutting up is a process that plays games in your mind, that it is why it is always best to have another person that has experience to watch on and keep you grounded in reality.

Pushing the body physically to the boundaries of endurance, again enhanced or not (lets be honest enhanced doesnt make it any easier), means that there is always that zone when as athletes we can and do go too far and push beyond our limits (this is when as Rapz said that if it endangers relationships sometimes it may not be worth it). Controlling that zone is where optimal gains will occur but it is difficult to control.

There are not many people who push that hard that they reach this zone but when you do you will know it. The bodies response to reaching the zone and not controlling it is rather like yoyo dieting (just more advanced like cheat meals or cheat days) it is better to try and understand the process that is happening so that you do not punish oneself and repeat the process.

As I have said this is just my experience, I am not here to justify myself just help if I can and its wanted.

 

Fat burning and muscle retention wise it is actually better if he does utitilize them. 

I'm not sure where you get your 10 days timeframe from - sounds absurd to me. 

When I have a cheat meal during dieting phases or prep it usually occurs twice a week and certainly does not take me 10 days before I start to notice/see changes again. I see changes instantly by appearing fuller and more vascular - and the day after I look much leaner. The full look usually lasts for a couple days before I deplete my glycogen stores again and start to look flat. By monitoring waist size and skinfolds I prove that these meals do not set me back and in fact I am getting leaner. 

Watch the video I posted you might learn something. 

 

[Rebel101]

Hi Dianabol just in response perhaps I should have been more specific in that instance, it does not set anyone physically back. However it does slow the fat loss process down when compared to the orignial plan.

Considering your example is a little different -

"When I have a cheat meal during dieting phases or prep it usually occurs twice a week and certainly does not take me 10 days before I start to notice/see changes again. I see changes instantly by appearing fuller and more vascular - and the day after I look much leaner. The full look usually lasts for a couple days before I deplete my glycogen stores again and start to look flat. By monitoring waist size and skinfolds I prove that these meals do not set me back and in fact I am getting leaner."

You are using the cheat meal as part of a considered process and looking for causse and effect and are learning from the process as you are monitoring and evaluating a more advanced process again.

When a cheat meal is a one off event as a consequence of a less considered process it is not the physical conseqences that have a detrimental effect but the physcological process. If you are not careful people then diet extra hard or do extra excercise to compensate for the cheat meat, when in reality they should not be doing this at all.

As I said just imo and experience.

[rapz]

Hey guys thanks both for the input - that video was a good watch Dianabol.

 

Hi Rapz just thought I would touch base and help you get through this period if I can.

The cheat meal you had will have set you back about 10 days (literally) which at this point in time is okay you are on track anyway, but it will also skrew your head up if you let it.

It has taken 5 days for the extra carbs to fully get out of your system and then another three days for the reestablishment of your mind set as to where you are physically at this point in time. Remember I spoke about the fine line that you walk between coping with diet and training and not coping with it, at between 8 and 10 days you are back at that point again.

Only after 10 days will you now start to feel like you are moving ahead again (this is really only a mind set thing as you are moving ahead all the time) its just that until this 10 days are over you will not be able to see it.

It is really important that you hold this 10 days together to get on top of it and move forward with more positivity, do not change anything about your program as it is not the right time to be evaluating anything right now.

With regard to the hunger cravings imo the best thing will be to back off some of your cardio (this is what really stimulates your appetite.

This is as much a mental game as it is a physical one, you have a plan it is a good one and you are looking great, stick to the plan.

 

Rebel101 - thanks for the encouragement mate.  I was actually reading this post yesterday as i did my cardio still feeling like crap and it sparked me up again.  so for what its worth - many thanks, will keep moving forward.

 

Dianabol - thanks for your input bro - i wish there other enhanced athletes that have competed before and could give some more insight - because i know as far as nutrition & training goes - there are a few things that differ vs being natty.

As for the cheat meals...

now Dbol was right -  i was more full, vascular and the next day could see my lines a better - yes there was a bit of water there but all that sub sided after a few days and i was back into flat land.

to give you a better idea what im taking in to the tee..

m1 - 1.5 cups rolled oats, 2 servings whey protein

m2 - 2 cups egg whites, 2 whole eggs

m3 - 250g chicken breast or fish , 20 cashews , 1 cup greens

m4 - 250g chicken breast or fish, 1 cup basmati rice, 1 cup greens

m5- 2 serving whey protein

m6- 250g fish, 20 cashews , 1 cup mixed veges

m7- 8 eggs or 2 serving casein with 2 tablespoon peanut butter

 

Calories - 3800 approx

Protein - 550 approx

Fat - 100 approx

Carbs - 180 approx

protein consumption is high, calories are moderate imo.  the diet has not changed once in 8 weeks from when i started at 138kgs.  so the carbs have been fairly low for my size the whole time.  the cheat meal i have certainly gave me a boost for a couple days, but i back feeling flat again.  I only want to use cheat meals for the benefits, not simply to satisfy a craving.

unsure where to go from here - coach is big on not cheating - and would rather include more protein if losing weight too fast - but protein is sky high as it is.

hmmmm....

 

[Rebel101]

Hi Rapz you are controlling everything just fine.

I would not meadle with your macros at all you have that well under control.

"protein consumption is high, calories are moderate imo.  the diet has not changed once in 8 weeks from when i started at 138kgs.  so the carbs have been fairly low for my size the whole time.  the cheat meal i have certainly gave me a boost for a couple days, but i back feeling flat again.  I only want to use cheat meals for the benefits, not simply to satisfy a craving.

unsure where to go from here - coach is big on not cheating - and would rather include more protein if losing weight too fast - but protein is sky high as it is."

You will by now be back to being flat but having had the cheat meal a week ago it has relieved the mental pressure of constant deprivation that comes with long periods of time in ketosis. IMO it will not be another week and a half until you reach that stage again.

My comment regarding the cardio is not to stop it entirely but to back it off just a little, enough to give you some extra recovery time, I find cardio gives me energy too but it is also one of the major stimulaes of hunger and burns calories. So if you are dropping weight too fast definitely drop the cardio rather than eat more.

Sorry did not mean to hyjack your thread but tried to clarify the points I was trying to explain.

[rapz]

Hi Rapz you are controlling everything just fine.

I would not meadle with your macros at all you have that well under control.

"protein consumption is high, calories are moderate imo.  the diet has not changed once in 8 weeks from when i started at 138kgs.  so the carbs have been fairly low for my size the whole time.  the cheat meal i have certainly gave me a boost for a couple days, but i back feeling flat again.  I only want to use cheat meals for the benefits, not simply to satisfy a craving.

unsure where to go from here - coach is big on not cheating - and would rather include more protein if losing weight too fast - but protein is sky high as it is."

You will by now be back to being flat but having had the cheat meal a week ago it has relieved the mental pressure of constant deprivation that comes with long periods of time in ketosis. IMO it will not be another week and a half until you reach that stage again.

My comment regarding the cardio is not to stop it entirely but to back it off just a little, enough to give you some extra recovery time, I find cardio gives me energy too but it is also one of the major stimulaes of hunger and burns calories. So if you are dropping weight too fast definitely drop the cardio rather than eat more.

Sorry did not mean to hyjack your thread but tried to clarify the points I was trying to explain.

dont be sorry its good - im learning things

not sure if backing down on cardio is an option - my scale weight has stalled - visusally im getting leaner.  i think my body has adjusted to the caloric intake with cardio everyday and if i were to take any of that energy expenditure out - i feel i may start gaining if anything.  thats what my mind tells me anyway lol

[Rebel101]

For the time being ignore your scale weight this is part of the process after the cheat meal, I know it does your head in but you are changing regardless of what the scales say.

Have you ever been talked to about ketosis and the measurement of ketones.

[rapz]

For the time being ignore your scale weight this is part of the process after the cheat meal, I know it does your head in but you are changing regardless of what the scales say.

Have you ever been talked to about ketosis and the measurement of ketones.

not in depth..

i have tried a full on keto diet and the a low carb diet with refeeds , i just brought those ketostix and pissed on em - i was in full ketosis on the keto diet and mild on the low carb.

still felt like shit on both of them, also i couldnt train how i wanted and was used to - so i ditched it.

[Rebel101]

This has nothing whatsoever to do with a keto diet.

My first employment was as a medical laboratory technologist for eight years with the equivalent of a university degree behind it, so I have some credentials here. And I know that this issue will be viewed sceptically so I will add imo to allow people to add to it as they see fit. I am also using simple terms so it is easily understood.

When fat is broken down and used for an energy source in the human body ketones are released in the urine. No you do not have to be on a keto diet, any diet that has a caloric deficit will put you into ketosis.

Measuring yourself first thing in the morning will provide the strongest measurement of ketone production, and unless you are heavily into ketosis during the day the reading will be less positive as more fluid is being passed along with the ketones.

Tracking your bodies production of ketones will give you an understanding of ketone production and hence fat metabolism.

Eg before your cheat meal you would have been heavily into ketosis, following your cheat meat you will have moved out of ketosis as your body had an alternative and more attractive energy source carbohydrates. Over the ensuing days as you used up the glycogen stored from the cheat meal you move back into ketosis and back to feeling flat again.

If you are consistent in your training and diet you will even notice that on high energy use days (such as leg workouts) you will be pushed into higher levels of ketosis than others.

There is the basis of it. Now if you use this it does not matter what the scales say if you are producing ketones then you are using fat as an energy source and are hence leaning up.

[Dinahlady]

This has nothing whatsoever to do with a keto diet.

My first employment was as a medical laboratory technologist for eight years with the equivalent of a university degree behind it, so I have some credentials here. And I know that this issue will be viewed sceptically so I will add imo to allow people to add to it as they see fit. I am also using simple terms so it is easily understood.

When fat is broken down and used for an energy source in the human body ketones are released in the urine. No you do not have to be on a keto diet, any diet that has a caloric deficit will put you into ketosis.

Measuring yourself first thing in the morning will provide the strongest measurement of ketone production, and unless you are heavily into ketosis during the day the reading will be less positive as more fluid is being passed along with the ketones.

Tracking your bodies production of ketones will give you an understanding of ketone production and hence fat metabolism.

Eg before your cheat meal you would have been heavily into ketosis, following your cheat meat you will have moved out of ketosis as your body had an alternative and more attractive energy source carbohydrates. Over the ensuing days as you used up the glycogen stored from the cheat meal you move back into ketosis and back to feeling flat again.

If you are consistent in your training and diet you will even notice that on high energy use days (such as leg workouts) you will be pushed into higher levels of ketosis than others.

There is the basis of it. Now if you use this it does not matter what the scales say if you are producing ketones then you are using fat as an energy source and are hence leaning up.

Stored glycogen in muscle isn't used typically used as a store to supplement blood glucose levels as its an unfavourable reaction chemically (pretty sure it is almost impossible because of lack of an enzyme) to take glucose out of glycogen stores in the muscle and move them back into the blood, this is why ketones increase almost exponentially from day 1 of starvation and origonal glycogen stores in liver would be used up within the first couple of days of starvation.

Muscle glyc store is used to take glucose and supplement just muscle activity. This also makes sense in an applied way as when starving your body wants to first gradually use up stored fat but also keep your muscle useful incase you need to run away from big scarey monsters whilst you are starving.

Due to training with weights and rapz depleating the glycogen in the muscles from training the carbs ( after raising blood glucose and all the pathways associated with that - some fat storage of course) a large percentage of the carbohydrates may have been shuttled into muscle to replenish muscle glycogen stores even to a supercompensated degree), theoretically minimally impacting on him coming back into ketosis.

{Source - biochemistry knowledge}  

The point of this post: I'm not trying to say that is exactly what happens at all or that I KNOW thats whats gone on, my point is that there always heaps of factors contributing and always small pieces of the puzzle that are easy to miss. There is proabbly a lot of factors also contributing from gear use that may contradict things anyone here has said that not a degree in anything will help solve. 

Moral of the story: Shit happens, you're never gonna know exactly whats going on in your body from it (though you can try and guess), Just keep trucking on. 

[Rebel101]

Hi Dinahlady essentially yes the pathways are complex and no doubt can vary from individual to individual but essentially from a cheat meal depending on the macro composition as food is digested the body will seek to refill muscle glycogen, refill liver glycogen, and store excess to these requirements as fat until the blood glucose is once again normalised. This is all moderated by the bodies response to insulin, saiety response etc etc.

Broadly speaking then as soon as glycogen is available to muscle it becomes the preferred energy source as it is simpler for the cells to convert and a more efficent energy source. As the mucsles once again use and deplete the muscles glycogen stores then they call the glycogen from the liver until that source too becomes depleted. Then the body again looks to fat stores.

Again this is simplistic and broad but understandable. I would like to think this is predictable and the process can be understood and managed as if you can track where your bodys energy systems are at firstly you can understand the process predict and manage it without kicking yourself too hard. Ketones are at least one way you can do a little better than guess.

[Dinahlady]

My objection was that I dont see any physiological basis for your "10 days" thing and it seems, as Dbol said, absurd. But if you are saying it is purely from your own experience or commenting from a psychological point then I'm cool w/dat. 

From my analysis of his diet I think that rapz will be back to his old mindset in 2 days and be getting ALLL KIIIINDZZ. 

[rapz]

lol im already brain fogged - is it time to cheat again? lmao

[Rebel101]

Do not get me wrong I think his "mindset" has always been there and he has always been moving forward.

The 10 days is a physiological response, firstly it takes time to utilise the extra glycogen that has been consumed and then to fully deplete again takes a little more time. The bodies physiological response also encompasses the response to additional fluid and simply the different types of food that are consumed (when dieting usually we have a more restricted variety of food than a cheat meal provides).

Then once you are back to being as depleted as you were before the cheat meal (and as Rapz said initially he as wondering if it was all worth it being the cost on relationships) which I do not think Rapz is a that point again yet.

You see it comes back to a physcological response to being in a deprived state for an extended period of time (please remeber this only happens to those who push themselves beyond normal endurance).

There has to be a difference between a bodybuilder (holding all things equal relating to the individual) dieting on say 3000 or 2000 (ie if an individual diets at 3000 it is one possible scenario, or if that same individual diets at 2000, keeping all the excercise etc etc the same the 200 cal diet is going to push the individual harder and to the extreme faster. The individual who has dieted at 2000 is going to be pushed to and possibly beyond the limit of endurance faster, it is only a matter of time)

I am sorry I do not know if I am explaining the concept well enough it is difficult to put down in hard copy.

So many times I see the whole scenario play out and there is a commonality to it.

[Rebel101]

lol im already brain fogged - is it time to cheat again? lmao

Hahahahaha no it is not...

Sorry once again we are hijacking your thread and I apologise for that, read these replies at a time when you have time to absorb them, it is not brain fog you are suffering from but these are some pretty advanced concepts that bodybuilders usually try not to get too involved in especially when you are dieting.

If it is making it difficult tell me and I will butt out.

 

[DIANABOL]

Could the mods maybe split this out as a seperate topic? I would like to add some more input however dont want to do it on Rapz journal. 

[Rebel101]

Could the mods maybe split this out as a seperate topic? I would like to add some more input however dont want to do it on Rapz journal. 

Good idea thanks didnt know they could do that

[Pseudonym]

We can do anything, Rebel101. Except when we can't.

[Rebel101]

We can do anything, Rebel101. Except when we can't.

Right !!!!!!!!

This is great now we do not have to interupt Rapz journal

[Gym rat]

This is a good thread with out interrupting Raz Journal speaking of cheat meals I am going to make the most of them before I start cutting for the Pans

[rapz]

Just to add we have scheduled weekly cheats - we have upped cardio twice a day and carbs will now be 125g per day 

tonight was sushi, 2 snack wraps (mc ds), lollies

[Rebel101]

Just to add we have scheduled weekly cheats - we have upped cardio twice a day and carbs will now be 125g per day 

tonight was sushi, 2 snack wraps (mc ds), lollies

Excellent you have programmed in extra calories and this will make you feel better and not so drained good move!!!

This is now part of your diet program quantified and recorded I dont call this cheat meals !? This is simply a good plan.

Cheat meals break the rules, thats why they are cheating.

Anyway enough of my thinking you are looking good and I think you are very close to 10% body fat or less, doing great !!!!!