Water or milk?

[munabil]

Hey..
Guys i just want to ask a question from all of you How big is the difference between using water or milk in a protein shake? 
Alot of people say water..but I prefer milk..what is the best type of milk to use? 
waiting for your suggestions

 

[Kalidane]

Meadow Fresh calci-trim (yellow top) has a pretty sweet nutrient profile.

 

Water is for showering.  Make your shakes with milk.

 

The difference is in the taste, consistency and extra nutrients of milk.  Just read the label.

[Gym rat]

Have my shakes in water and if I am buying a protein shake have it in milk which I don't mind

[FellowshipOfTheRon]

all depends on your preference man. if you got no troubles drinking it in milk then go for it, you get more protein with it and depending on the milk a bit more carbs/fats too.. as long as it all fits into your macros and you like the taste then why not.

 

i used to use milk but slowly just couldn't handle it any more (at least not together with my whey). would give me too much gas and make me feel bloated/full for the next few hours which is simply counterproductive as I can't get down my much needed meals later on in the day.

 

most shakes do taste better with milk but after a while of doing them up in water you'll get used to the taste so don't worry about that if you ever think of switching over. main thing is you can't go using as much water as you would milk or the taste gets way too thin. generally i use 200ml water per 2 scoops of most whey proteins (which is like 55g powder->40g protein

[jimmybro1]

Meadow Fresh calci-trim (yellow top) has a pretty sweet nutrient profile.

 

Water is for showering.  Make your shakes with milk.

 

The difference is in the taste, consistency and extra nutrients of milk.  Just read the label.

Milk is for babies 

[alem]

I have it with water, I use ISO 100 atm its a nice mix with water, I was just told by someone a long time ago, theres no point drinking it with milk as you want it to be in you quickly, and most milk is like casein and will slow the digestive process.

 

Besides I only fill a standard shaker with 1/3 to 1/2 of water, so its a few gulps!

[atrollappears]

I have it with water, I use ISO 100 atm its a nice mix with water, I was just told by someone a long time ago, theres no point drinking it with milk as you want it to be in you quickly, and most milk is like casein and will slow the digestive process.

 

Besides I only fill a standard shaker with 1/3 to 1/2 of water, so its a few gulps!

 

Milk is indeed a great way to go. I usually go with 40g whey, 20g casein, 500 ml milk, 30g of soluble oatmeal, 5g creatine, 5g sodium bicarbonate. Kinetic studies on whey and casein indeed show that neither impedes the digestion speed of the other, meaning whey still causes a fast, short peak of AA's while casein maintains a smaller but lengthier peak for several hours. Nature knows what its doing, we just tinker with the ratio's 

Here's a paper explains milk, whey, casein protein timing etc:

Whey protein has been the prodigy of the supplement industry, by far leading sales since bodybuilding supplements came in vogue up until now. Research also clearly demonstrates whey is by far the superior choice for pre and post-workout nutrition. That is the topic of this article, and we will be discussing it at length in a bit. Although I have been singing the praise of casein as an absolute must in the supplement arsenal for well over a decade, it wasn’t until the supplement industry realized they could make more money selling both as worthy supplements, instead of using casein as the cheap protein alternative to fool consumers, that magazines and trainers started suggesting some uses for casein, around 2004-2005, particularly as a protein source prior to bed. However still very few people seem to realize that micellar casein is probably by far the superior protein source for literally any other time of day other than around your workout. Previous research already demonstrated it, and new research continues to validate this (14). Not only is the area under the curve (an indication of absolute volume) for casein greater than for whey, the slower rate of appearance also leads to reduced oxidation and therefor greater peripheral uptake of amino acids. Phillips et al. (13) postulated that the higher quality of whey may have been related to a greater uptake by peripheral tissue rather than the splanchnic bed, but the Soop et al. study (14) clearly demonstrates an equal distribution of amino acids from both whey and casein across splanchnic and peripheral tissues, but that total uptake in both was greater for casein than for whey. Especially when you can’t eat frequently enough to stimulate protein synthesis around the clock, casein is a far better option  to cover your basis as well. Using whey would almost necessitate feeding every 2.5h to reap the benefits it offers over casein. Of course adding a little whey to your casein to get a higher postprandial boost in MPS, and then have mostly casein to sustain it and prevent protein loss is an even better idea. Which is roughly the composition of milk protein, which is why I have been recommending milk as a staple in any diet for nearly 12 years now. Add to that that a liter of semi-skimmed milk is a complete meal at around 480 kcal with 48g of low glycemic sugar, 34g of protein and 15g of fat and sets you back less than half a buck. The fact that it is liquid and doesn’t need to be prepared makes it easy to use any time and be consumed on top of your normal meals to meet caloric and protein demands. During carb restriction (not something I practice outside of the last weeks of a diet) you can always switch to supplemental casein in water or extra casein in a bit of milk.

I also make a personal habit of supplementing my post-workout shake with cheap sources of protein on top of my 25-30g of whey as well, by mixing it in 500 ml of skim milk and adding 2 raw eggs. I don’t really understand why not more people make their shake with milk. It’s tastier, fuller, has additional proteins and you don’t need to add any carbs to it. I think there is some inane fear people have that mixing whey in anything, especially something containing slow digesting casein, will somehow affect the fast characteristics of whey, and that too is a good reason to include the Soop et al. (14) study here, because it was mostly designed to study the fate of the amino acids in whey and casein when they are co-ingested and it clearly shows that co-ingestion does not notably affect the fast nature of whey protein, with the mixed meal giving a distinct early and high peak in amino acid appearance, as well as a prolonged, moderate sustained effect as a result of the casein.

As we mentioned earlier though, whey remains the undisputed king of post-workout proteins as backed by the literature, and that is probably the result of its fast digestible nature, its high leucine content and complete amino acid profile. Central in this discussion were the studies by Tipton et al. (15,16). In the first study they examined the effect of a mix of 10g of free form essential amino acids + carbohydrate before and after the workout, and came to the surprising conclusion that when taken before the workout the effect on muscle protein synthesis was greater than when it was taken after the workout. This makes sense in a way since logically you would have an elevated amino acid level at the time the effect of your resistance exercise kicks in. Now before you go proclaiming that everyone should take their shake prior to their workout instead of after their workout, the second study was a copy of the first, but using intact whey protein instead of free form amino acids, and the results there were equal regardless of whether it was ingested before or immediately after the workout. But the effect was still slightly less pronounced than the results obtained with the free form amino acid mix. We typically define the optimal anabolic window as 45min prior and 2h after a workout, and for that reason, especially post-workout, whey is better suited. But that’s only post-workout, because as Burke et al. (19) recently demonstrated, when matched for leucine content, pre-workout, a slow digesting protein was able to match the results for a fast digesting one.

Protein timing

The two last mentioned studies by Tipton et al. already shed some light on the fact that there isn’t much difference in taking your whey protein shake just prior or just after your workout. Before seems slightly more favorable since you would have elevated blood amino acid levels as the effect of exercise kicks in, but in truth I’m not so sure this should be an either/or type of debate. There are a few things we know to be true. Exercise enhances the need for calories and consuming the bulk of calories around the time of the workout ensures they are maximally used in the anabolic window, with reduced chance of storing them as fat. The use of fast protein sources necessitates more frequent feeding. And lastly, we know that exercising in a fasted state leads to elevated AMPK (17), while training in a fed state does not (18). AMPK being one of the primary negative regulators of mTORC1, the key signal integrator in Muscle protein synthesis. Consider the time that elapses between a pre- and post-workout protein shake and you’ll soon begin to see the sense in using both. More than just protein it is important to make sure you are training in a fed state however, this can also be achieved by eating a full mixed nutrient meal 1 to 1.5h prior to your workout, then consuming your protein shake immediately after your workout and having another full meal 1.5 to 2h after that.

13. Staples AW, Burd NA, West DW, Currie KD, Atherton PJ, Moore DR, Rennie MJ, Macdonald MJ, Baker SK, Phillips SM.Carbohydrate does not augment exercise-induced protein accretion versus protein alone.Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2011 Jul;43(7):1154-61.

14. Yang J, Dolinger M, Ritaccio G, Mazurkiewicz J, Conti D, Zhu X, Huang Y.Leucine stimulates insulin secretion via down-regulation of surface expression of adrenergic α2A receptor through the mTOR (mammalian target of rapamycin) pathway: implication in new-onset diabetes in renal transplantation.J Biol Chem. 2012 Jul 13;287(29):24795-806.

 

15. Nicklin P, Bergman P, Zhang B, Triantafellow E, Wang H, Nyfeler B, Yang H, Hild M, Kung C, Wilson C, Myer VE, MacKeigan JP, Porter JA, Wang YK, Cantley LC, Finan PM, Murphy LO.Bidirectional transport of amino acids regulates mTOR and autophagy.Cell. 2009 Feb 6;136(3):521-34.

16. Mittendorfer B, Volpi E, Wolfe RR.Whole body and skeletal muscle glutamine metabolism in healthy subjects.Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab. 2001 Feb;280(2):E323-33.

17. Arsham AM, Neufeld TP.Thinking globally and acting locally with TOR.Curr Opin Cell Biol. 2006 Dec;18(6):589-97.

18. Jacinto E, Lorberg A.TOR regulation of AGC kinases in yeast and mammals.Biochem J. 2008 Feb 15;410(1):19-37.

19. Gong R, Li L, Liu Y, Wang P, Yang H, Wang L, Cheng J, Guan KL, Xu Y.Crystal structure of the Gtr1p-Gtr2p complex reveals new insights into the amino acid-induced TORC1 activation.Genes Dev. 2011 Aug 15;25(16):1668-73.

[jimmybro1]

5g sodium bicarbonate? Doesn't that upset your stomach? 

[atrollappears]

5g sodium bicarbonate? Doesn't that upset your stomach? 

 

 

Bicarbonate has been researched by sports scientists for some time, some studies have suggested it has great potential for enhancing anaerobic performance. Perhaps the one major confounding factor is the relatively common side effect of stomach problems. 

 

Underlying theory Energy production via anaerobic glycolysis, which is particularly important for events lasting between 30 seconds and 15 minutes, increases the acidity inside the muscle cells and very soon after does the same to the blood. It is this increase in acidity within the muscle cells that is a major factor in producing fatigue in such events. If there was some way to reduce the acidity within the muscle cells, one could theoretically delay fatigue and thus continue exercising at a very high intensity for longer. Sodium bicarbonate is an alkalising agent and therefore reduces the acidity of the blood (known as a buffering action), but cannot enter the muscle cells to reduce the acidity there. However, by buffering acidity in the blood, bicarbonate may be able to draw more of the acid produced within the muscle cells out into the blood and thus reduce the level of acidity within the muscle cells themselves. This could delay the onset of fatigue.

[AZIDE]

seems to me that you would just be neutralising stomach acid and creating carbon dioxide in your stomach. or do you take it intravenously?

 

your blood already contains a buffer solution too

[Pseudonym]

Remember those fancy "buffered creatine" products that were so trendy a few years back? They used sodium bicarbonate as the buffer.

But like Azide, I'm not sure that 5g of baking soda is going to have much of an effect on my blood pH level. Otherwise every time we'd be increasing the acidity every time we eat a tomato, or an orange, or a wine, etc, etc... Surely the body has a more robust system than that?

[Kalidane]

 

brb riding my unicorn to the gypsy woman to learn about how an akaline diet can benefit me.

 

Pseudo is dead right.  We have stunningly effective systems which ensure our blood pH remains stable.  We aren't delicate snowflakes sorry (not sorry).

 

Pls tell me more of your anabolic windows.

 

Recall that MPS triggering is refractory.  We don't want to confuse acute response to protein ingestion with what's going on in the 48 hour period following training.  The goal (presumably) is maximising net-MPS over this period.  

 

 

Meadow Fresh calci-trim (yellow top) has a pretty sweet nutrient profile.

 

Water is for showering.  Make your shakes with milk.

 

The difference is in the taste, consistency and extra nutrients of milk.  Just read the label.

Milk is for babies 

 

 

So you're saying babies are anabolic?  hmmm I'll have to google scholar this.

 

[FellowshipOfTheRon]

 

jimmybro1 wrote:

 

Meadow Fresh calci-trim (yellow top) has a pretty sweet nutrient profile.

 

Water is for showering.  Make your shakes with milk.

 

The difference is in the taste, consistency and extra nutrients of milk.  Just read the label.

Milk is for babies 

 

 

So you're saying babies are anabolic?  hmmm I'll have to google scholar this.

 

[Kalidane]

FellowshipOfTheRon wrote:

I think he was making an Arnold reference/joke where he says something like "milk is for babies, when you grow up you drink beer" in response to the "water is for showering"

[danellaj]

I didnt read all the other replies, I just thought I would add what I think and what I do.

I use raw cows milk in my morning shake, (raw milk, balance natural protein, 1 frozen banana, chia seeds) Its my breakfast so I want a little more fat and carb in there and I drink that on my drive to work so I can get out the door fast. 

The other shake I take is in the evening right after my workout. I have this one with water. 2 reasons. In the evening I like to keep my carb really low and when Im at the gym theres water there. I just use about 200-300ml of water though. I find with less water its tasting better. 

Im not an expert, thats just what I do.

 

Oh and a brief thought on acid vs alaline. Overall its better for your body to be more alkaline. However I think that means not having only plant foods all the time, but balancing it out. Green smoothies, vegetable juices. Or If you cant handle that green tablets with mixed greens or pea protein (cant stand it myself) If you were living on protein powder and meat and soft drinks and alcohol your body is not going to thank you in the long run. Also when you train hard you need to counteract that freeradical damage with some nice antioxidants. So greens, bright berries. Again - do what you want, thats just what I think.

[Pseudonym]

danellaj wrote:

...some nice antioxidants. So greens, bright berries. Again - do what you want, thats just what I think.

Agreed. Also, these are often the things that add flavour and colour to a meal. IMO, if your food is tasty and interesting, it tends to be healthy by default.

[FellowshipOfTheRon]

lol banned, his questions actually didn't sound that wierd.. did we just get trolled by a spam bot or was it some noob trying to get to 5 posts to source?

[Pseudonym]

He was posting from Pakistan, so my guess is he was starting a whole pile of topics which would have been mysteriously edited later to contain spam links.

[FellowshipOfTheRon]

ooh then the thread ends up looking really popular and stuff ? spammers be tricky

[Flex]

 

 

5g sodium bicarbonate? Doesn't that upset your stomach? 

 

 

Bicarbonate has been researched by sports scientists for some time, some studies have suggested it has great potential for enhancing anaerobic performance. Perhaps the one major confounding factor is the relatively common side effect of stomach problems. 

 

Underlying theory Energy production via anaerobic glycolysis, which is particularly important for events lasting between 30 seconds and 15 minutes, increases the acidity inside the muscle cells and very soon after does the same to the blood. It is this increase in acidity within the muscle cells that is a major factor in producing fatigue in such events. If there was some way to reduce the acidity within the muscle cells, one could theoretically delay fatigue and thus continue exercising at a very high intensity for longer. Sodium bicarbonate is an alkalising agent and therefore reduces the acidity of the blood (known as a buffering action), but cannot enter the muscle cells to reduce the acidity there. However, by buffering acidity in the blood, bicarbonate may be able to draw more of the acid produced within the muscle cells out into the blood and thus reduce the level of acidity within the muscle cells themselves. This could delay the onset of fatigue.

The main benefit from Sodium Bicarb comes with lactic acid buffering, however you need shiteloads of the stuff for it to be effective (about 30grams a day), and it can be pretty hard on the guts, plus being high in sodium (30g sodium bicarb is around 7.5grams of sodium or 3 teaspoons/1 tablespoon of table salt) so it isn't a bodybuilders best friend - your best to load on it and only use it pre-event. Sodium bicarb and milk and/or calcium caseinate isn't a good combination due to the effect alkali substances have with calcium, eg milk-alkali syndrome and the production of kidney stones, gout etc.

If you have acidic blood ie you've tested the pH of your blood/urine, and need to follow an alkaline diet, then you'd be beter off to eat alkaline foods (alkali fruits and vegetables grown in alkaline soils), rather than sodium bicarb/baking soda as a high sodium diet has it's own negative effects.

Funny that the article pasted above is so heavily into study references and yet the author consumes 2 raw eggs as a cheap form or protein, why anyone eats raw eggs for protein with all the research now available is beyond me, unless you're Rocky you're better off heating it.

"....with the use of stable isotope techniques, we were able to determine the amounts of egg protein escaping digestion and absorption in the small intestine after ingestion of a physiologic load. Native egg protein is malabsorbed to an important extent. The assimilation of egg protein is facilitated by heat-pretreatment...."

http://jn.nutrition.org/content/128/10/1716.full

[Pseudonym]

So in a nutshell... There could be some benefit to taking sodium bicarb, but you'd have to take enough to overcome your body's built-in buffering system, which isn't good for your guts, and it's probably of most benefit to endurance athletes (who really have to fight lactic acid). Is that right? Interesting though...

I've got two more questions for you, Flex. (Neither of them are on the original topic, but that's ok!)

- Inspired by this topic, I just tried using sodium bicarb to offset the acidity of D-aspartic acid. I mixed a teaspoon of both in a glass of water, and it works really well. Not only is it less like drinking pure acid (which is what DAA alone feels like), it also makes it dissolve properly too. But am I ruining my DAA in the process?

- Does pasturising egg whites (a la Zeagold egg whites) increase their bioavailability sufficiently, or do you need to cook them properly?

[Kalidane]

 

 

If you have acidic blood ie you've tested the pH of your blood/urine, and need to follow an alkaline diet, then you'd be beter off to eat alkaline foods (alkali fruits and vegetables grown in alkaline soils), rather than sodium bicarb/baking soda as a high sodium diet has it's own negative effects.

 

 

 

I'm not sure I'm following what you're saying here.

 

Are you suggesting that testing urine pH is as diagnostically useful as arterial blood gas analysis?  I'm happy to bet that my urine pH is not 7.4 and that I do not have acidosis nor alkalosis.

 

If you're saying that eating 'an alkaline diet' will increase body fluid pH, then wouldn't prolonged consumption of 'alkaline foods' run the risk of inducing alkalosis?

 

Eat sufficient sources of potassium and magnesium; trim the sodium.  Benefits of 'the alkaline diet' achievement unlocked.

 

No gypsy women were harmed in the typing of this post.

 

 

[Flex]

 

 

 

If you have acidic blood ie you've tested the pH of your blood/urine, and need to follow an alkaline diet, then you'd be beter off to eat alkaline foods (alkali fruits and vegetables grown in alkaline soils), rather than sodium bicarb/baking soda as a high sodium diet has it's own negative effects.

 

 

 

I'm not sure I'm following what you're saying here.

 

Are you suggesting that testing urine pH is as diagnostically useful as arterial blood gas analysis?  I'm happy to bet that my urine pH is not 7.4 and that I do not have acidosis nor alkalosis.

 

If you're saying that eating 'an alkaline diet' will increase body fluid pH, then wouldn't prolonged consumption of 'alkaline foods' run the risk of inducing alkalosis?

 

Eat sufficient sources of potassium and magnesium; trim the sodium.  Benefits of 'the alkaline diet' achievement unlocked.

 

No gypsy women were harmed in the typing of this post.

I'm glad you don't understand what I'm saying because I don't really understand your post either gypsy man.

I'm not sure what arterial blood gas analysis is, however it sounds a lot more overcomplicated than a simple urine test with litmus paper for checking the ph of your diet.

In relation to what you've quoted above, maybe the misunderstanding stemmed around a punctuation error as it looks like I missed a comma out. So basically what I was saying is "you're better off eating alkaline fruit and vegetables as opposed to sodium bicarb COMMA as a high sodium diet (eg sodium bicarb) has it's own negative effects."

If you're saying that eating 'an alkaline diet' will increase body fluid pH, then wouldn't prolonged consumption of 'alkaline foods' run the risk of inducing alkalosis?

Logic would dictate that if following a highly acid producing diet leads to acidic state, then a highly alkaline producing diet leads to an alkaline state, whether or not either lead to extreme alkalosis or acidosis is probably going to depend on duration of the diet, training volume, calorie intake and how effective your body is at dealing with it. I'm no doctor however I would imagine you're more likely to get alkalosis from combining an alkaline diet with a excessive use of buffering agents like sodium bicarb as opposed to simply eating alkaline forming foods.

[Pseudonym]

Psst, Flex - you missed my questions on the last page!

http://www.gymnation.co.nz/forum/diet-nutrition/water-or-milk-0?page=1#comment-2716301

[Kalidane]

I'll take a mulligan then and try to keep it short and clear.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alkaline_diet

 

It sums up a great deal.

 

Urine pH is a measure of what is being removed by a system which maintains correct body pH.  So if urine has a high pH, that means the body is successfully removing stuff to ensure the correct level.  Equally, if urine has a low pH, it means the same thing is happening.  This is very good.

 

For a number of specific diagnosible medical conditions, we do actually care about urine pH.  It is otherwise irrelevant, in exactly the same way that we do not care what the HCO3 content of exhalations is.  

 

See: http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Human_Physiology/The_respiratory_system

 

In short, I think you're positing that some foods harm the body by changing its pH.

I'm rebutting this by saying that the human body has multiple systems to ensure correct pH.

Science, and I think intuition, support the latter.

 

The human body is far too awesome for food(!) to mess us up.