No post-workout shake

[Bmac81]

Just on a new calorie surplus bulking diet but don't have a protein shake after training.....

When talking to the nutrionist it was explained that all the nutrients and protein were already in the diet and timed to be available on completion of training. 

Anyone heard of this? Anyone got some thoughts? Please help as it sounds strange. 

 

[Kalidane]

Not likely to make a material difference to your results.  Maybe a little if you're hoooge and lean.

 

Focus on training, rest, and adhering to the diet you paid a professional for.

 

This guy thinks it doesn't matter at all:

Workout Nutrition is a Scam

 

Shitstorm I summon thee!

[FellowshipOfTheRon]

Just on a new calorie surplus bulking diet but don't have a protein shake after training.....

When talking to the nutrionist it was explained that all the nutrients and protein were already in the diet and timed to be available on completion of training. 

Anyone heard of this? Anyone got some thoughts? Please help as it sounds strange. 

 

Your nutritionist knows whats up. I feel sorry for the suckers who go pay someone to plan them up a supplements stack/bunch of MRP shakes diet.

If your goal is to bulk up, most important is to;

a) be on a caloric surplus, hit the macros the nutrisionist has set you each and every day

b) have the nutrients from your food into your blood stream by the time you're working out (mainly carbs but pre workout protein can have great effect on pump at least from what I've found)

c) stimulate the muscle adequately

d) sleep/recover

Post workout shake is not a must, just something for convenience as alternative to whole food protein sources. If you really must have the shake then you can talk to the nutritionist about reducing macros from elsewhere in your plans and shifting them towards the powder product of your choice.

[Leeroid]

I haven't had a post workout shake for the last year and sometimes don't eat for a few hours. I've gone from 74kg to 85kg. Post workout nutrition don't mean shit

[Realtalk]

Post workout nutrition is important.

When your 100kg and trying to put on weight your opinion might change.

[Phedder]

Going to play devils advocate here. There's no regulation or registration to call yourself a nutritionist. Joe bloggs could set up a clinic calling himself a nutritionist, so be wary. Dieticians on the otherhand.have to go through rigorous study and examination (typically nutrition degree + postgrad dietetics) to become registered dieticians.

There's definitely some.great nutritionists out there who may not have the flashest qualifications but whose experience and results lends great credibility. They don't all have that.

Edit: quoting didn't work on my phone, but that was in response to FOTRs 'your nutritionist knows whats up'

[Realtalk]

Everyone whose got a calorie counting app and read a couple of online articles written by a guy with 4% body fat is a nutritionalist. Don't mess with them they have numerous internet links to back them up.

[Pseudonym]

I haven't had a post workout shake for the last year and sometimes don't eat for a few hours. I've gone from 74kg to 85kg. Post workout nutrition don't mean shit

Yeah, but you also have a lot of other "supplementary" assistance, Leeroid. I'd be concerned if you didn't grow!

Do you think that post-workout insulin also doesn't mean shit? PWO nutrition works on the same principle.

 

When talking to the nutrionist it was explained that all the nutrients and protein were already in the diet and timed to be available on completion of training. 

I think I know what he's saying here... That by having enough protein throughout the day, you ensure you have loads of amino acids floating around in the bloodstream, all ready to be pulled into the muscle.

And that's absolutely true. After a workout, your muscles are primed to absorb aminos. You don't need to do anything else. However, a rise in insulin levels opens up the muscle cells to absorb the aminos much more effectively. You can bump up your insulin with protein and high GI carbs. Armed with that information, why wouldn't you use it?

A lot of what we do in bodybuilding is about making minor adjustments for incremental gains. Often the best you can hope for is "I think that helps". Adding glucose to my post-workout shake was the first time I ever changed something, and saw a dramatic improvement.

Don't get me wrong - by far the most important factor is the caloric surplus and overall macros. But after that, I think nutrient timing has it's place too.

[Leeroid]

Yeah of course. But I don't believe that the insulin spike created by consuming dextrose/protein is going to make a significant difference as has been insinuated by the supplement industry, who, coincidentally have the most to gain from this absolutely 'crucial' supplementation.

Exogenous insulin post workout is a different story. A huge insulin spike is guaranteed and you can go hypo and die. Comparing that to a protein shake is ridiculous.

Imo anyway the money spent on a bag of protein powder is better spent on a vial of test

[Kalidane]

Yeah maybe.

 

Staples et al. (2011) wanted to replicate the above finding to end the discussion once and for all. After a weight training session, they gave their subjects either 25g of whey or both 25g of whey in combination with 50g of maltodextrin. They found that consuming 50g of maltodextrin along with 25g of whey does not stimulate muscle protein synthesis or inhibit protein breakdown more than 25g of whey alone.

 

Verdijk et al. (2009) found that a group consuming protein immediately before and after training at midday did not gain more strength or more muscle than a group consuming adequate protein throughout the day without consuming anything during the ‘anabolic window’.

Wycherley et al. (2010) found that there was no difference in muscle retention, strength gains or fat loss between consuming protein right after training and consuming the same amount of protein 2 hours later during a weight loss diet in which adequate protein was ingested.

 

 

But even if there are magic windows, focussing time/money/energy on the small things isn't worthwhile.  Don't major in the minors.

[Realtalk]

Post workout nutrition is important.

tom lee mate, it easy to get to 85kg that's same size dan carter... Dnt be telling us post workout nutrition don't mean shit.

pre workout nutrition and post workout nutrition important. 

err thing important.

merry Xmas 

[Realtalk]

I haven't had a post workout shake for the last year and sometimes don't eat for a few hours. I've gone from 74kg to 85kg. Post workout nutrition don't mean shit

Yeah, but you also have a lot of other "supplementary" assistance, Leeroid. I'd be concerned if you didn't grow!

Do you think that post-workout insulin also doesn't mean shit? PWO nutrition works on the same principle.

 

When talking to the nutrionist it was explained that all the nutrients and protein were already in the diet and timed to be available on completion of training. 

I think I know what he's saying here... That by having enough protein throughout the day, you ensure you have loads of amino acids floating around in the bloodstream, all ready to be pulled into the muscle.

And that's absolutely true. After a workout, your muscles are primed to absorb aminos. You don't need to do anything else. However, a rise in insulin levels opens up the muscle cells to absorb the aminos much more effectively. You can bump up your insulin with protein and high GI carbs. Armed with that information, why wouldn't you use it?

A lot of what we do in bodybuilding is about making minor adjustments for incremental gains. Often the best you can hope for is "I think that helps". Adding glucose to my post-workout shake was the first time I ever changed something, and saw a dramatic improvement.

Don't get me wrong - by far the most important factor is the caloric surplus and overall macros. But after that, I think nutrient timing has it's place too.

The last sentence is real talk.

[Leeroid]

Yeah yeah whatever. I got free protein anyway so I've been having post workout shakes for the last two weeks. I've already put on 3kgs of muscle and lost 2kgs of fat

 

/thread

[Realtalk]

Yeah yeah whatever. I got free protein anyway so I've been having post workout shakes for the last two weeks. I've already put on 3kgs of muscle and lost 2kgs of fat

 

/thread

But at what cost?

[Terrymundo]

errrybody knows that if dont have a shake straight after your workout you've effectively wasted your time. the anabolic window is the only time you can gain muscle. im srs, a guy told me in the gym.

 

 

 

[Riccardo]

Okay so here is an explanation of peri-workout nutrition and how significant it is. The first factor is insulin, contrary to popular belief insulin is more anti-catabolic than it is anabolic, at least In physiological concentrations. Insulin signaling is important as it reduces muscle catabolism  post workout, therefore it may be useful to eat something insulinogenic around the time of your workout and unless you are training fasted you probably consumed some kind of food that raised insulin prior to training anyway so I wouldn't really class that as "preworkout nutrition" more like not being a retard.

secondly we have protein, everyone should know that protein synthesis increases post workout, for about 2 hours it's at it's peak. They should also know that protein, mostly due to leucine increases protein synthesis. So it kind of makes sense to consume protein (~20g of essential aminos) in proximity to a training session as the increase in protein synthesis is augmented.

does augmenting protein synthesis in this way actually lead to any greater gains? I'm not so sure, I dunno if having a larger peak post training response is more important than simply maximizing the area under the curve of net protein synthesis I'll ask a mate who just did a thesis on post workout protein. But from what I've read, most studies contradict each other and cannot conclusively say whether there are any real differences in lean body mass. Certainly you aren't wasting a gym session by not having a protein shake within 5 seconds of your workout, common sense should prevail, eat something prior to working out and consume some form of protein when you can after your workout. This is something most people do without even consciously thinking about it anyway. 

[Pseudonym]

Good post, Riccardo!

As with all things in bodybuilding, nutrition theories go in and out of fashion. I'm quite happy to be convinced that the PWO nutrition "facts" I learnt 10 years ago are now no longer considered correct.

But from what I've read, most studies contradict each other and cannot conclusively say whether there are any real differences in lean body mass.  

This is what I suspect. The studies Kalidane posted were good - and yes, they indicate PWO protein makes no difference - but I imagine there'd be just as many studies "proving" the opposite case as well.

What would be really interesting is a meta-analysis - a study of all these conflicting studies. Defintely keen to see what your mate has to say, Riccardo. Get him to sign up here!

[Dinahlady]

Awesome post riccardo  

It is an interesting topic and I think scientifically nutrient timing does make a difference acutely in the body and different mechanisms might lead to greater results - but overall it makes less difference than consistently eating enough and training well. 95% of gym goers probably dont have the basic nutrition (overall calories and macros) right enough - as well as training methods, rest/recovery or exercise form - for it to really make a difference. 

On another side of things - some people do need those bro science methods to hold on to to actually achieve consistent eating and training. For heaps of people someone selling them a protein shake and telling them they need it after a workout is probably adding at least 30% more protein to their daily intake... so believing you absolutely need protein pwo probably helps a lot more people than it hinders them. Although in a perfect world it would be good if people did know that overall diet is much more important than one shake.

[Destamoon]

 

does augmenting protein synthesis in this way actually lead to any greater gains? I'm not so sure, I dunno if having a larger peak post training response is more important than simply maximizing the area under the curve of net protein synthesis

That was quite thought provoking

[ngapuhi strong]

i dont rate pre or post work out shakes from my experiance.

personaly my body seams to react better to real food eg meat and brown rice and have seen better results from eating proper food rather then shakes.

i do have dextrose in my water and start sipping on it up to twenty min before work out. im not sure if the energy bost from it is real or mental but eather way i get it

[jimmybro1]

Lees thoughts on the anabolic window, I share the same opinion. 

Its well and truely over exaggerated. If you were a conspiracist you could say the need for a post workout shake was derived from supplement companies marketing. Next pre-workouts came out as a "must need" and now "intra-workouts" and don't forget your casien before bed LOL. 

[Realtalk]

All u guys can kiss ur sweet gains goodbye.

[HarryB]

It's an interesting topic and some of the higher end nutrition guys would say that intra workout and pre and postworkout nutrition are important to give you that extra few % points of proper nutrition. Then there's Poliquin, Sarcev and a few others who set up complicated protocols to sell supps. Forgetting to mention all the steroids and peptides that the elite level athletes also use to help uptake their nutrients.

I would say that around contest time in a calorie deficit it is probably more useful to utilise these products as "insurance" but for the most part I tend to agree with the general consensus that essentially if you are having enough protein carbs and fats throughout the day to grow then you don't need supplemental anything.

I guess the key is to try something, keep the rest of your nutrition the same and add a post workout or have some aminos intra workout and see if they improve anything. Find out how your body responds. My wallet responds to all that shit by becoming lighter LOL that's all I notice!

[rapz]

Imo pre, intra and post workout nutrition is very important.  Things dont need to be too complicated just eat a decent meal 1-2 hours pre workout, sip on some simple carbs or BCAAs and just when you can make sure you get some post workout nutrition, whether thats a shake, meal or both its upto you and how you fit it in your regime.

the whole idea is to stay anabolic as much of the day as possible right?  Workout times are probably when we are most catabolic, so priming the body with nutrients surely must help vs no nutritional approach.