can some one settle an argument for me.

[mrgeeky]

I always do my front delt dumbell  raises with my thumb facing up as I feel it works the front delt much better..

A Gym instructor in the gym stopped me today and tried to correct me. He said I should be holding dumbells with palms facing down. He wasnt happy when I said I thought he was wrong...

Any thoughts guys?

[Phedder]

Keep doing it your way. With palms facing down the shoulder is internally rotated, which decreases the space between the bones and tendons, increasing the chances of shoulder impingement and general wear and tear. For a healthy shoulder with lots of mobility this really isn't a problem, but from memory you've got some pretty serious rotator cuff issues, so it's definitely safer for you to perform them with the thumbs up, which externally rotates the shoulder providing more space. 

Next time you see him ask what he knows about the rotator cuff and his qualifications, and explain you do it with thumbs up for safety reasons. Should get him off your case. 

[Kalidane]

Nice one Phedder.  Good to be 'wared of this.

 

So a similar story for DB Lat Raises I'm guessing.

 

Hitchhikers guide to delts!

[mrgeeky]

Keep doing it your way. With palms facing down the shoulder is internally rotated, which decreases the space between the bones and tendons, increasing the chances of shoulder impingement and general wear and tear. For a healthy shoulder with lots of mobility this really isn't a problem, but from memory you've got some pretty serious rotator cuff issues, so it's definitely safer for you to perform them with the thumbs up, which externally rotates the shoulder providing more space. 

Next time you see him ask what he knows about the rotator cuff and his qualifications, and explain you do it with thumbs up for safety reasons. Should get him off your case. 

yeah mate, was going to keep doing it my way, unless I was corrected in here... And you are correct, using thumbs up does help to avoid pain...  My shoulders are a bit of a mess.  Using palms down does seem to hurt at times. More or less pain free with thumbs up grip..

cheers for the advice.. I'll keep doing it my way.

[Dinahlady]

Both ways are correct - it's just a variation. But phedder is also right that neutral/hammer grip is anatomically better in most movements (Db bench, Chins, Pulldowns) for shoulders in general.

The PT just showed you that way because that's all he's been taught in PT school hehehe *mosking* 

just mention external rotation and he should definitely scurry away... 

[OnlyHuman]

I agree with Phed. Very nice contribution! *ok*

However, one thing you can do (or trial) if you want to emphasise the mid delt (with palms facing down) but have some shoulder pain in this position  is bringing the arms out in the scapular plane. So not side raising to the sides strictly but slightly forward (but not a front raise) this creates some space in the sub-acromial area.

[mrgeeky]

Both ways are correct - it's just a variation. But phedder is also right that neutral/hammer grip is anatomically better in most movements (Db bench, Chins, Pulldowns) for shoulders in general.

The PT just showed you that way because that's all he's been taught in PT school hehehe

just mention external rotation and he should definitely scurry away... 

heh heh heh, yep.. Gym instructors!

Got to love their enthusiasm.

Thanks Dinahlady..

 

[mrgeeky]

I agree with Phed. Very nice contribution!

However, one thing you can do (or trial) if you want to emphasise the mid delt (with palms facing down) but have some shoulder pain in this position  is bringing the arms out in the scapular plane. So not side raising to the sides strictly but slightly forward (but not a front raise) this creates some space in the sub-acromial area.

was trying to isolate front delt..

Front dumbell raises for front delts, with the thumbs up grip, when I put my hand on my front delt as I go through the motion, it does appear to me to work the front delt muscle much more, than a palm down grip.

That was my reasoning behind using a thumbs up grip.

Regarding your post,, yep, thats exactly what i do for side dumbell lateral raises.. And agian, yep, it does help to ease pain and allows me to do them..

[Gym rat]

Another option is doing front raises with a plate plus it puts less strees on  the shoulders while hiting the front delt

[mrgeeky]

thought I would youtube it for the hell of it.. Found this short vid clip.. I cant help but wonder now if I had been doing it wrong all these years.. Does anyone else use this form of extending out? Have I just learnt something new?

ouchy.. just tried it.. shoulder definitely doesnt like doing it with that extra extension.... And thats with no weights..  Hmmmmmm!

[Phedder]

 

Both ways are correct - it's just a variation. But phedder is also right that neutral/hammer grip is anatomically better in most movements (Db bench, Chins, Pulldowns) for shoulders in general.

The PT just showed you that way because that's all he's been taught in PT school hehehe

just mention external rotation and he should definitely scurry away... 

heh heh heh, yep.. Good old P.Trainers straight out of uni..

Got to love their enthusiasm.

Thanks Dinahlady..

 

PTs straight out of university are few and far between, I'm one of them haha. The problem with personal training is it's a very watered down industry, not hard to get qualified at all. Some only have a 2 week 'crash course' under their belt and nothing else, and tend to be very dogmatic in their view points (such as you must do front raises with your palms down...) because that's all they've been taught, and they don't have the knowledge to think freely and critically about the why. 

That reach toward the wall movement is again another variation, but not one meant for bad shoulders. It may help some people feel it more intensely in the target muscle, but in your case that will also decrease the space available in your shoulder. I'd actually recommend the opposite, pull your shoulder blade back and down, think of squeezing a pencil between your shoulder blades, and then sliding them into your back pocket. That should keep everything locked in place and limit any unwanted movement, allowing you to focus on the movement and front delt. 

[mrgeeky]

 

Both ways are correct - it's just a variation. But phedder is also right that neutral/hammer grip is anatomically better in most movements (Db bench, Chins, Pulldowns) for shoulders in general.

The PT just showed you that way because that's all he's been taught in PT school hehehe

just mention external rotation and he should definitely scurry away... 

heh heh heh, yep.. Good old P.Trainers straight out of uni..

Got to love their enthusiasm.

Thanks Dinahlady..

 

PTs straight out of university are few and far between, I'm one of them haha. The problem with personal training is it's a very watered down industry, not hard to get qualified at all. Some only have a 2 week 'crash course' under their belt and nothing else, and tend to be very dogmatic in their view points (such as you must do front raises with your palms down...) because that's all they've been taught, and they don't have the knowledge to think freely and critically about the why. 

That reach toward the wall movement is again another variation, but not one meant for bad shoulders. It may help some people feel it more intensely in the target muscle, but in your case that will also decrease the space available in your shoulder. I'd actually recommend the opposite, pull your shoulder blade back and down, think of squeezing a pencil between your shoulder blades, and then sliding them into your back pocket. That should keep everything locked in place and limit any unwanted movement, allowing you to focus on the movement and front delt. 

awesome post again..

cheers Phedder, will be sticking with your advice.. Just as you say, definitely not good for my shoulder.. Shoulder instantly hurt trying it.. 

I did  note in that little vid clip he says, 'watch all the muscles of the rear deltoid come in to play"

But its supposed to be an exercise to isolate the front delt as much as possible!

Anyway, great advice from all.. If the P.Trainer ever mentions this again, I might just steer him towards this site and this thread.. :-)

 

 

 

 

[Pseudonym]

So many good posts in this topic. *ok*

[Kalidane]

thought I would youtube it for the hell of it.. Found this short vid clip.. I cant help but wonder now if I had been doing it wrong all these years.. Does anyone else use this form of extending out? Have I just learnt something new?

ouchy.. just tried it.. shoulder definitely doesnt like doing it with that extra extension.... And thats with no weights..  Hmmmmmm!

 

Watched him do one rep and thought "Yeah I'm never doing that"...

 

Good idea trying the motion without weights - beats doing a few sets and being wrecked for a week!

 

Anything rhyming with protraction and closing up that subacromial space is terrible news (for some of us anyway).

 

As mentioned, keeping the scapular back and down (not ridiculously - just in the 'proper' position if you know what I mean) and giving thought to keeping the lower part flat against the thoracic wall really helps.

 

In4FonzieTraining

[Riccardo]

Listen to Phedder. Why the hell you would try and lengthen a muscle at the end of a concentric contraction is beyond me, it's also asking for a cuff tear. One more thing, be careful not to over develop any muscles which internally rotate the shoulder, over time it will lead to impingement. make sure you are performing regular external rotation everyweek to prevent this happening, it also improves your posture.

As for shit PTs I know all about them, I did a quick course with NZIHF to gain reps registration while finishing my post grad study at Uni and I had full on arguments with the "trainers" there. One told me benching beyond 90deg did nothing more for pec development..*NO*

[Realtalk]

Personal training industry is full of cowboys, really no different to any other industry.

I know ppl who been to UNi for 4 years and are 3 years out of UNi and have no clients. I know people who have done an 8 week course and are killing it. You shouldn't bag courses as the short ones are good for some people.

its about the individual and how you market/sell yourself and nothing about qualifications. Unless you want to work in a professional sports team... But that's what everyone wants to do lol and that's just more work for  less money

iv never in the gym told someone they are completely wrong. That doesn't go down well. You should always ask why they do it that way or who showed then this way, then suggest an alternative followed by an explanation on why you think it is better.

This guy you are talking about is probably a gym instructor, all they good for is putting weights away tell him that.

 

[Phedder]

 

 You shouldn't bag courses as the short ones are good for some people.

 

Those people are usually the ones with a fair bit of experience and knowledge behind them already, in which case a short course is just what they need to get registered. On the other hand some kid fresh out of high school who has always been fit without much effort or structured training, put them through an 8 week course (or worse, 2 week course...) and you've got a recipe for disaster in some cases, where they shouldn't be allowed to train a dog, let alone a human being. 

The depth of knowledge gained through those courses just isn't enough to be able to analyse a persons needs and help them fully. Instead they're taught cookie cutter crap. It's called personal training, not 'here's what every other client of mine is doing' training. 

You're absolutely right that it's all about the individual though, sadly it's more about being able to market and sell yourself than the actual skill set you may have. Though actually being able to relate and deal with people is pretty important, and you definitely don't get that from any qualifications. 

[Realtalk]

Being reps registered is over rated, no benefit whatsoever to being registered to anything in the fitness industry as far as personal training goes. Most employers require some form of qualification which is good don't get me wrong, but in my experience the level of that means very little especially when your a contractor.

[mrgeeky]

And you guys are right of course... My mistake saying P.Trainer.. What I should have said was Gym Instructor...  Thats more than likey what his real job discription was..

I remember years ago when I looked at doing a course, some of the Uni's were offerering very short courses for Personal trainers.. Thats the only reason I mentioned straight out of Uni..

Im guessing by the sounds of it, the courses they offer these days are abit more intensive..

Anyway,  my mistake so have changed words / posts accordingly...

[Dinahlady]

 One more thing, be careful not to over develop any muscles which internally rotate the shoulder, over time it will lead to impingement. make sure you are performing regular external rotation everyweek to prevent this happening, it also improves your posture.

This +1

Also - the only thing that short PT courses taught me was the overwhelming feeling of "Oh crap, this really didn't teach me anything, how do I actually PT well?" And give me the motivation to actually do my own endless research/shadowing/asking questions of other PTs and people I respected. They are basically just a formality and the very bare minimum basics and not the place to get the bulk of your knowledge from...