How big of a calorie surplus?

[James432213]

For naturals, what seems to be the standard increase in calories for bulking?

I heard that +500 ultimately will just make you have an excess amount of fat and that around 250ish is better.

Atm, im averaging at +0.35-0.4kg per week which IIRC is +350-400 calorie surplus.

Im thinking of dropping to 250, so I can bulk slower for longer, which again I heard is the best approach.

 

What does your excess calories look like for bulking?

 

Thanks.

[Dinahlady]

imo it needs to be progressive. Just how your body will adapt to a decrease in food when dieting it will adapt to an increase. When you stop putting on a small amount of weight week per week then increase cals by 100 cals and then keep it there untill you plateau again, then increase again. 

So if you think you are putting on too much fat from what you're on now drop it down a bit, or back to maintenence for a couple weeks. then start that process.

Just my 2c. 

 

[PecChef]

Are you a lean bulker??

 

I love lean bulking and if your planning on putting minimal fat gains while bulking I usually go with a 300 cal surplus.

 

[James432213]

Am I a lean bulker?

I was just always under the impression that slow and steady wins the race.

What advantage is it to have a big cal surplus? You just gonna have to cut earlier and the person that bulked for long  will make more gains over time?

[FellowshipOfTheRon]

Am I a lean bulker?

I was just always under the impression that slow and steady wins the race.

What advantage is it to have a big cal surplus? You just gonna have to cut earlier and the person that bulked for long  will make more gains over time?

yeah slow and steady sounds nice. less work to do later in regards to having to 'peel off' the excess too. have you ever tried a higher surplus? having been on one in the past compared to what im doing now (lower surplus), gotta admit was more energetic, generally stronger but was always bloated (both feeling and looking). hard to tell which way works better unless you get really frequent testing done to find out how much lean muscle youre adding. sure is an interesting question!

[Gym rat]

Since I am bulking just now I am using the 90/10 rule by eating clean during the week and the rest of the time like Friday night and the weekend having a couple of cheat meals like what ever I feel like at the time plus I love the smell when I go to the food court in Merdian mall.I think what  a nice lovley smell of Burger King,Thai,Subway,Kebabs,Indian etc

[Wolffenbuttel]

Simply answer is as big as you need.

If you can add in 100kcals and still make positive advancement on the scales then that's the right number. I like the philosophy of the "Minimum Effective Dose" - Do the bare minimum required to still head towards your goal. 

[mrgeeky]

Food for thought. http://www.t-nation.com/diet-fat-loss/5-2-fat-loss-diet-for-lifters
 

[Kalidane]

Food for thought. http://www.t-nation.com/diet-fat-loss/5-2-fat-loss-diet-for-lifters

 

 

 

How has this worked for you mrgeeky?

[mrgeeky]

 

 

Food for thought. http://www.t-nation.com/diet-fat-loss/5-2-fat-loss-diet-for-lifters
 

 

 

How has this worked for you mrgeeky?

Im too busy following the advice that FellowshipOfTheRon gave to me and its doing absolute wonders so am not going to change things around any time soon.. And fellowhsipofTheRon.. Many many thanks for the advice. I owe you big time.
 

 

[mrgeeky]

is this your website FellowshipOfTheRon?

http://www.josefrakichfitness.com/

[FellowshipOfTheRon]

 

 

 

Food for thought. http://www.t-nation.com/diet-fat-loss/5-2-fat-loss-diet-for-lifters

 

 

 

How has this worked for you mrgeeky?

Im too busy following the advice that FellowshipOfTheRon gave to me and its doing absolute wonders so am not going to change things around any time soon.. And fellowhsipofTheRon.. Many many thanks for the advice. I owe you big time.

 

 

is this your website FellowshipOfTheRon?

http://www.josefrakichfitness.com/

Hey that's good to hear that it's going great for you MrGeeky. nope that's not me that's Josef Rakich would take me some years yet to build up to that physique

[mrgeeky]

Im too busy following the advice that FellowshipOfTheRon gave to me and its doing absolute wonders so am not going to change things around any time soon.. And fellowhsipofTheRon.. Many many thanks for the advice. I owe you big time.

 

 

is this your website FellowshipOfTheRon?

http://www.josefrakichfitness.com/

Hey that's good to hear that it's going great for you MrGeeky. nope that's not me that's Josef Rakich would take me some years yet to build up to that physique

Greats not the word... Amazing would be more like it.. Waist measurment has gone from 117 to 112cms and although my understanding is  you are not supposed to make muscle / strength gains while cutting, I keep getting stronger and stronger for nearly all exercises in the gym.. I keep wondering when Im going to hit a brick wall with my training.. Although must admit I have had to cut back on cardio a lot due to running out of steam earlier than i used to.  have copied and pasted your instructions and sent them to friends.. I have a friend that has had 2 heart attacks and is extremely obese.. Can hardly carry him self around the gym. I have him following your advice too..  Your instructions may just save his life, If he keeps following through with it.. Im passing it around to other guys in the gym too..  It seems Im not alone with my training with out taking any notice of my diet attitude of the past.

I have been asking the guys in the gym, and none that I have spoken to yet worry about diet which makes me feel less of an idiot.. I cant help but wonder what if I had of counted calories from when I first started in the gym over 20 years ago.. I certainly wouldnt have stayed fat..

So again, many many thanks FellowshipOfTheRon , Im absolutely stoked at the huge change in my life. At long last..  :-)

 

Hope I havent hijacking your thread James432213, Apologies if I have.

[James432213]

I was thinking if you can work out how much you can gain naturally in a year then you could work out how much extra calories to eat each day to maximise muscle gain and minimise fat gain.

 

According to "lyle mcdonald" table http://www.muscleforlife.com/how-much-muscle-can-you-build-naturally/

 

You can gain the following:

YEAR OF PROPER TRAINING	POTENTIAL MUSCLE GAINS
1	20-25 pounds
2	10-12 pounds
3	5-6 pounds
4+	2-3 pounds

 

So if my calculations are correct, then

25/2.2 = 11.3kg first year of proper training

= 0.94kg a month of muscle

= 0.23kg a week of muscle

= +230 calories a week ontop of maintance calories

 

12/2.2 = 5.45kg second year of proper training

= 0.45kg a month of muscle

= 0.11kg a week of muscle

= +110 calories a week ontop of maintance calories

 

Does this seem accurate?

If so, I should aim for around 230+ or 300+ (just to be safe) for my first year and so on for the next year?

[Clueless]

Finding maintance calories is the hardest part especially if work varies (physical). Was looking at getting a fitbit.

[jimmybro1]

4+ years 2-3 pounds *sad*

[Kalidane]

There are so many variables involved that I really wouldn't concern myself with what some spreadsheet says I can achieve.

 

Once you've established your maintenance calories, find what works for you and your lifestyle.  So that might be lean gains, intermittent fasting, or bulk/cut cycling.  Basically, your body will actually tell you _what_ you should be doing; not the internet.  The internet may help you with _how_ to do it.

[Phedder]

There are so many variables involved that I really wouldn't concern myself with what some spreadsheet says I can achieve.

 

Once you've established your maintenance calories, find what works for you and your lifestyle.  So that might be lean gains, intermittent fasting, or bulk/cut cycling.  Basically, your body will actually tell you _what_ you should be doing; not the internet.  The internet may help you with _how_ to do it.

*good*

 

James, I wouldn't get too caught up in being so precise. It's damn near impossible to control things to such a degree. 250 calories above maintenance a week? So that's 35 calories a day above maintenance. That's 3-4 fish oil caps, a heaped scoop of protein instead of flat, the rice that might stick to the rice cooker. It's just unrealistic and will absolutely take over your life. What if you walk instead of bus/drive 1 day a week? How are you going to calculate your maintenance level either? From calculators online? Those may be out by up to 10-15% in individual cases, so then you have to do a lot of trial and error yourself which will take many more weeks. 

Counting calories and macros is fine and knowledge is power, but it can lead to paralysis by over analysis. Focus on slow, steady progression on the scales, in the gym, on measurements and in pictures. I'm not sure what your stats are, but aiming for say 0.5-1kg a month of weight gain should be fairly manageable without much fat gain at all. If you gain 1kg one month, and only 250 grams the next, but your waist size stayed the same and your thigh and arm measurements increased, then great, you're making progress and building muscle. Even better if your lifts are going up to. There's a lot of ways to measure progress, and frankly I think the scales are one of the worst. Have a target, sure, but have other means to validate that target. 

 

 

 

[Leeroid]

Phedder wrote:

Kalidane wrote:

There are so many variables involved that I really wouldn't concern myself with what some spreadsheet says I can achieve.

 

Once you've established your maintenance calories, find what works for you and your lifestyle.  So that might be lean gains, intermittent fasting, or bulk/cut cycling.  Basically, your body will actually tell you _what_ you should be doing; not the internet.  The internet may help you with _how_ to do it.