Dropping the fat by dropping the protein?

[Pseudonym]

The other day, Nate posted something over here that caught my eye.

Maybe add low GI carbs and drop protein keeping the calorie level the same (and before some fuckhead says never drop protein in lieu of carbs you don't need 300+ grams like every 80kg gymrat seems to swear by). I've done that this time around (350g protein down to 200g with low GI carbs throughout the day (yes even after the gym at night) and my physique is better by far and dieting has been so much easier without the constantly fluctuating blood sugar.

To be fair, the 80kg gymrats are only parroting all the 120kg gymrats who also swear by high protein. The whole "gotta get more protein" belief is so much a part of fundamental gym knowledge that it's almost blasphemy to question it. But since Nate's leading the way, I'll follow...

 

I have noticed that when I slack off with my diet, I often get leaner. Usually that means an increase in carbs, and a decrease in protein. I've never sat down and calculated it, but one roughly offsets the other, so there's not a huge change in overall caloric intake - I imagine. So why do I get leaner? Protein doesn't have any fat-retention properties, does it?

I mentioned this to another mate at the gym recently, and like me, he'd noticed the same thing, but had thought he'd be laughed out of town if he said anything.

So what's behing this? Is it that our calories MUST be lower? Or is there something else at play here?

[Dinahlady]

I think that people have a protein requirement for gaining muscle, to a certain extent, but many people surpass this by people saying "eat more protein". people consume way more than thier body can utilise in this way and after a certain point it does become slightly "useless calories" (in terms of the reasons why people eat more protein, although there are some benefits like satiation and not overdoing carbs). Sometimes these excess calories would be used more effectively if they were in the form of carbs rather than protein for more fuel, muscle glycogen, insulin like effects, and many more reasons that can keep you fuller and leaner and more efficient,  rather than flatter and weaker (not everyone) with less carbs and excess protein. 

Obviously if you aren't natty you do have increased requirements - but also increased ability to deal with carbs too - so I'm not 100% sure when it comes to that - but im sure this also applies to some extent but  just the requirements of both carba nd protein would be higher 

[HumanPerformance]

Protein can be converted into glocose and then stored as bodyfat (if surplus to immediate energy requirements) this is done through a process called Gluconeogenisis.

Out of the three macros (carbs,protein,fats) protein is the least likely under normal conditions to be converted into bodyfat. And so this of course is why high protein low carb diets work so well and have become so popular. But Dan Duchaine was the first to observe that some individuals are particularly predisposed to gluconeogenisis. He noted this so often that in his book "BodyOpus' he suggested whilst on a ketogenic diet a ratio of 75% to 25% fat to protein ratio would push one into ketosis faster than the other way around. He realized that when carbs were taken out of the equation protein quite often converted to bodyfat easier than fat did. 

So over the years Ive used this technique myself when attempting to get clients down to the lowest badyfat possible. If a client isnt tracking as expected Ive found if I drop thier protein and increase their fat intake the fat loss often kicks in again. 

And I think this is the point, it all depends on what else is happening in your diet.For example a higher saturated fat and carbohydrate intake (i.e not eating as clean as normal) can cause higher test production which could lower bodyfat.Or a sudden increase in carbohydrate intake can have a thermic effect in that it helps to re establish proper thyroid function during an extended time dieting.   

Of course there is the theory thats been around for a few years now (first theorised by Dan Duchaine) that people that follow a high protein low carb diet for a long period of time cause the body to become particularly adept at performing gloconeogenisis, and when these individuals drop thier protein intake and replace it with low GI carb sources a loss in bodyfat will be noticed. Is this what is happening in Pseudos and Nates bodies?? Who knows, possibly.

 

[Phedder]

Good posts *ok*

 

Another potential player there could be Leptin. Depending on just how low the carbs were initially before the switch, dropping the protein and increasing the carbs could help raise leptin levels and increase the metabolism. 

As HP has said, there's so many individual and contextual aspects to take into consideration that it really is hard to truly determine what's happening, but over time we can certainly learn how our bodies respond. We're all just walking science experiments (Some more than others *mosking* )

[HumanPerformance]

Good posts

 

Another potential player there could be Leptin. Depending on just how low the carbs were initially before the switch, dropping the protein and increasing the carbs could help raise leptin levels and increase the metabolism. 

As HP has said, there's so many individual and contextual aspects to take into consideration that it really is hard to truly determine what's happening, but over time we can certainly learn how our bodies respond. We're all just walking science experiments (Some more than others )

Yes exellent point Phedder.

[Leeroid]

Quite an informational thread! Excellent posts.

[Pseudonym]

Cheers guys - all very interesting. I'll definitely link my mate to this topic (he ought to be on Gymnation anyway!)
 

HumanPerformance wrote:   

Of course there is the theory thats been around for a few years now (first theorised by Dan Duchaine) that people that follow a high protein low carb diet for a long period of time cause the body to become particularly adept at performing gloconeogenisis, and when these individuals drop thier protein intake and replace it with low GI carb sources a loss in bodyfat will be noticed. Is this what is happening in Pseudos and Nates bodies?? Who knows, possibly.

 

It kind of feels like that might be what happens. A couple of years back I tried the Anabolic Diet (high protein, high fat, very low carbs). Although I looked harder with the low carbs, I didn't get any leaner until I really dropped the calories right down. HP, I remember at the time you were surprised at how low the calories were. Maybe I was just super-efficient at converting protein to energy. Go me.

 

[Dinahlady]

The only issue I have with the whole thing is that the only people (females) who I see around (online, facebook, siouxcountry etc) who look decent and relatively lean (I dont expect shredded but you know) as well as having muscle, most of the time are the ones who love low carb. Physiologically, I'm pretty sure that you can be  and stay in condition (not stage ready) but look decent on what would be considered a good amount of carbs (and not just "vegetable" carbs) - but its hard to find many concrete examples? Is this just because of the trends in the fitness world or is it because it just doesnt happen? (which i think is pretty unlikely). 

Only recent example is DLB saying she ate way more carbs going into her recent win with george farrah (though I dont know how much "more carbs" is). 

 

[HumanPerformance]

The only issue I have with the whole thing is that the only people (females) who I see around (online, facebook, siouxcountry etc) who look decent and relatively lean (I dont expect shredded but you know) as well as having muscle, most of the time are the ones who love low carb. Physiologically, I'm pretty sure that you can be  and stay in condition (not stage ready) but look decent on what would be considered a good amount of carbs (and not just "vegetable" carbs) - but its hard to find many concrete examples? Is this just because of the trends in the fitness world or is it because it just doesnt happen? (which i think is pretty unlikely). 

Only recent example is DLB saying she ate way more carbs going into her recent win with george farrah (though I dont know how much "more carbs" is). 

 

 

 

Unfortunately Dinah when it comes to females we are talking about a completely different animal.

Your dead right in your observations in respect to very few if any females are able to maintain very low body fat levels on relatively medium to high carb protocols. The female reacts alot differently to carbs than most male bodies do. I really feel for women because they seem to truly love carbs as wel, and often REALLY crave them due to their hormonal profiles being all over the place.

Particularly if a female has been on very low carbs for an extended period of time then the sudden reitroduction of starchy carbs can have a devastating effect on thier body compisition.Where as mentioned in earlier posts a male can ofetn become leaner with carb reitroduction this does not seem to be the case with most  women at all. And so after a women has been on low carbs in is very important to bring the carbs back in a very slow and controlled manner. I have witnessed many a female blow up at an alarming rate after competition.

As to your question about the popularity of females on low carb diets? I dont think its due to social conditioning at all but rather a results based necessity. I mean what women wouldnt love to be able to follow a fat loss diet that incorperated a few starchy carbs here and there!

Of course when one takes into consideration the biological responses of females  like DLB we have to remember that these females hormonal profiles more resemble that of a males than the average female (if you get my drift) .

BTW Dinahlady Ive been reading alot of you posts recently and have been very impressed with the quality of them. Is nice to see a knowledgable female on here giving advice.

Pseudonym.... yes I do remember how low you had to take your calories on that diet!!

[Gym rat]

Very informative thread