I was thinking...

[eatliftrest]

First cycle I would recommend 250mg-375mg/week. nolva at 20/20/10/10. Don't bother with HCG.

What would you suggest when tapering off from this ^ Riccardo? No nolva at all?

thnx

[Riccardo]

From your posts it's clear that you believe people are only taking hCG to restore LH at the end of a cycle. None of your posts seem to address the positive benefits on running hCG during cycle to mitigate testicular atrophy and other associated side effects of low LH.

This is why hCG is used, mimicking natural LH levels for its affect on Lydig cells, while you are already suppressed.

For perspective are you suggesting that it's pragmatic to run longer cycles (12 weeks, 24 weeks, blast/cruise) without stimulating your leydig cells?

Im talking more about pct but even so why run hCG during cycle? To not have small balls?

Android, actually you can run more than a 100mg of test a week and still maintain LH secretion, like I said LH secretion resumes with lowering serum concentrations of sex hormone. Im not sure of the point of your post?

I'm truly excited by what you wrote.

So many people on this forum often post about their concern about permanent shut-down when on TRT (mrgeeky and others)...you should tell them what you know dude it will put their minds at ease to know that they are not shutting down their LH production taking "more than" 100mg Test every single week.

A lot of them are worried they need to cycle or they will permanently shut themselves down, your take on this would be really helpful to them.

that's my point :shock:

Oh ok, well as I said earlier, hCG's use is limited to fertility and HRT applications. The thing is, the doctor isn't too concerned with your natural LH secretion when going on HRT, any real endocrinologist (not from some dodgy men's clinic) will only really prescribe with the view that it's a permanent thing so why worry about LH secretion? If someone is worried about having kids then yeah sure they might also use hCG. But the reality is that most guys on HRT are past that and already have kids.

You don't really have to worry about permanent shut down with normal cycle lengths. Studies where guys have been administered 600mg of test for 6 months show that LH production still resumes as normal.

[Riccardo]

First cycle I would recommend 250mg-375mg/week. nolva at 20/20/10/10. Don't bother with HCG.

What would you suggest when tapering off from this ^ Riccardo? No nolva at all?

thnx

Depends on ester, but for test E:

Weeks 1-10: 375mg test/week

Week 11-12: 100mg

Week 13: 75mg

Week 14: 50mg

Use a conservative dose of AI eg. arimidex .125-.25mg/day and continue till week 16. I would recommend tapering off this aswell so that by week 16 you are only using .25mg eod.

Thats the best protocol I've seen guys use, for prop I would suggest going down to 25mg/week as more of the drug weight is actual testosterone and less ester.

[eatliftrest]

Awesome mate. Thanks a lot

[yeelang]

From your posts it's clear that you believe people are only taking hCG to restore LH at the end of a cycle. None of your posts seem to address the positive benefits on running hCG during cycle to mitigate testicular atrophy and other associated side effects of low LH.

This is why hCG is used, mimicking natural LH levels for its affect on Lydig cells, while you are already suppressed.

For perspective are you suggesting that it's pragmatic to run longer cycles (12 weeks, 24 weeks, blast/cruise) without stimulating your leydig cells?

Im talking more about pct but even so why run hCG during cycle? To not have small balls?

Android, actually you can run more than a 100mg of test a week and still maintain LH secretion, like I said LH secretion resumes with lowering serum concentrations of sex hormone. Im not sure of the point of your post?

Atrophied Leydig cells have been shown to have decreased LH stimulated testosterone production. In one study after the completion of 16 weeks LH suppression, it took 8 and 6 weeks respectively for testosterone and leydig cell volume to reach 80% of the control group, but only one week for LH levels to return to normal.

Likewise in studies where LH increases were used to increased rat testosterone production a 3 fold increase in the size and number of leydig cells corresponding to a 6 fold increase in testosterone production.

The volume of the leydig cell has a relationship with the amount of testosterone it can secrete and while there are other factors at play during PCT it is advantageous to keep leydig cells stimulated while on cycle.

[I Declare War]

Yeelang, nice info there mate. I'd be keen to read the actual research on this. Have you got any links?

[Android]

yeah Bill Roberts talked about how fast LH responds (1-2 weeks) but takes much longer for Testosterone levels to increase.

It was this info 5 yrs ago that got me onto the 6 week off-cycle. After 6 weeks off I get a blood test and if LH is normal and Test is shown to be on the rise (by taking 2 blood tests)....I can go back on cycle safe in the knowledge that I haven't f**ked with my LH and suppressed it completely.

I'm not interested in how high my natural levels of Test can get to, I'm interested in whether I can produce Test again and that's it.

nice extra info on that re: atrophy and test production Yeelang

[yeelang]

I don't have the full-text links anymore. If you can find them there is more documented on LH, Leydig cells, testosterone during post treatment.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2129433

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3197648

[severe]

Im talking more about pct but even so why run hCG during cycle? To not have small balls?

Small balls shoot small loads.

Small balls didn't alter the load size for me. Water intake did. The semen starts off above the prostate in the seminal vesicle.

If I wasn't drinking enough to urinate every hour, I had reduced fluid in my loads.

And if the woman wasn't awesome, that meant the load was smaller.

A direct link between hot whores and large loads I reckon.

[student]

Im talking more about pct but even so why run hCG during cycle? To not have small balls?

A direct link between hot whores and large loads I reckon.

this. also found this link holds with porn as well as real life

[AZIDE]

.

[Riccardo]

Well so far all I can see, without being able to read the full texts, is that you've found studies that show that leydig cell volume reduces with reduced LH stimulation and that recovery of the testosterone secreting capacity of those cells takes slightly longer. I don't think anyone, including myself, would try to refute this fact. We all know that when you stop administering testosterone it takes a little while for your natural testosterone production to begin.

However, I do have a couple issue with those studies and they don't necessitate the use of hCG during cycle. The researchers administered both testosterone and estradiol to the animals, how much estradiol? We don't know. Estradiol itself is not very nice to your testes, this is seen in studies that have shown SERMS are able to ameliorate hCG induced leydig cell desensitization (1). In this particular study, 1500iu of hCG for only 3 days was enough to elicit the accumulation of 17 alpha-hydroxyprogesterone (17 OHP). 17 OHP is a precursor to testosterone and an elevated ratio of 17 OHP to testosterone suggests disruption to testosterone biosynthesis. So yip hCG does cause leydig cell desensitization. Tamoxifen was able to alleviate this however it must be noted that testosterone production wasn't increased any more so than with the administration of hCG alone, thus suggesting there is some other factor that comes into play. What it is exactly, we don't know. So if we are throwing significant amounts of oestrogen into the mix, it makes sense we should see some damage to leydig cells and evidently hCG actually facilitates estrogen related desensitization of these cells.

Secondly, hCG has a much longer half life than endogenous LH, from memory it is around 33hr compared to only 20min for LH. This has a profound effect on the HPTA as shown in this particular study where the examined the amount of testosterone production after, continuous infusion of recombinant LH or multiple bolus doses (2). Multiple bolus doses of LH allow for greater testosterone production than a continued infusion because this mimics the body's natural diurnal pattern of pulsatile LH secretion. So if you are injecting hCG which has a much longer half life, you are interfering with the the pulsatile release of LH from your pituitary, as a note it's hypothesised that hCG production during pregnancy is what feeds back to the hypothalamus to stop pulsatile LH release (3).

The study you posted states that there was no significant change in leydig cell number, just volume. Leydig cells don't just die off because they aren't being stimulated, they reduce their volume. To paraphrase the author: LH helps to maintain leydig cells in their differentiated state i.e. it keeps them producing testosterone, it doesn't keep them alive. In light of this, there is no reason why a taper would not work and actually takes no longer than a conventional PCT in the protocol I outlined above. Further to this, because leydig cells are not permanently damaged, not keeping them stimulated while on cycle isn't really going to affect you so long as you taper off. The taper gives your testes time to resume normal response to LH as you are not all of a sudden dropping testosterone cold turkey. You have enough exogenous testosterone in your system to maintain sexual function and hold onto gains but not enough to suppress your natural LH production and compromise testicular function.

You have to stand back a bit and look at the big picture, ultimately a PCT is about recovering as quickly as possible and with the least side effects as possible. A test taper allows you to do this. Sure you can take hCG here and there and then SERMs to offset leydig cell desensitization and then time hCG to mimic LH secretion as best you can, then deal with the added sides from nolva clomid, hCG etc. But you wan't your body to achieve homeostasis, I don't see how throwing more drugs into the mix all the while lining your dealer's pockets is going to be the easiest way of doing this. I guess its up to the individual and what they feel is the best option for them.

1. Smals AG et al.Tamoxifen suppresses gonadotropin-induced 17 alpha-hydroxyprogesterone accumulation in normal men. J Clin Endocrinol Metab 1980 51(5): 1026-9.

2. Veldhuis JD et al. Dynamic testosterone responses to near-physiological LH pulses are determined by the time pattern of prior intravenous LH infusion. Endo and metab 2012 303(6): 720-728.

3. Mores N et al. Activation of LH receptors expressed in GnRH neurons stimulates cyclic AMP production and inhibits pulsatile neuropeptide release. Endocrinology 1996 137(12): 5731-4.

[Android]

IME and I did a pyramid cycle for my first cycle and once again on 3rd cycle of 3mths duration.

IME you can do anything for a first cycle and you bounce back without any dramas if it's 3-4 mths long and just basic compounds like Test and DBols. No worries there.

I tried the pyramid cycle-off again 8 years later and wasn't fun at all I don't see the point of feeling de-motivated, weak, and tired for even a week or two...why bother feeling like shit. That 3rd cycle was 3mls per week. (2ml Test-E and 1ml Deca)

Now, on my cycles it's too much and for too long for the pyramid-off cycle to even be worthwhile. I would only recommend it for beginners...IME

[Seeking]

thanks again for all your info and insights guys, it really helps trying to understand all this stuff

So looking back at my future cycle, if i were to change the test E dosage to 350mg p/week, still pinned twice as usual.

In addition dropping Nolva dosage to around 40/40/20/20, or would 20/20/10/10 suffice as Riccardo has stated......... It just seems that most places i seem to read a recommended PCT dose (bodybuilder recommended ) for nolva is around the above protocol, damn confusing :doh:

I have been educating myself a bit more in regard to HCG, LH and leydig cells etc. I have found some of the literature really handy and has some useful info, but it doesn't really answer my question.....

from what i understand from reading some of your guys posts, is that introducing another drug like HCG is just another substance that can have a negative impact on your HPTA but to a point can have a desensitizing affect on your leydig cells?? please correct me if im wrong im just trying to understand things a bit more.

I would like to know in terms of testicular atrophy, that it will benefit from me administering this while on cycle. I also remember reading in a few cases (1st time cycle users) where people have chosen to blast HCG in the last 4 weeks of their cycle @ 1000IUs per week, could this be a better approach.

I do understand the whole "more drugs is not better", however i just need to get a better understanding around it all. I appreciate all your guys input.

[Riccardo]

thanks again for all your info and insights guys, it really helps trying to understand all this stuff

So looking back at my future cycle, if i were to change the test E dosage to 350mg p/week, still pinned twice as usual.

In addition dropping Nolva dosage to around 40/40/20/20, or would 20/20/10/10 suffice as Riccardo has stated......... It just seems that most places i seem to read a recommended PCT dose (bodybuilder recommended ) for nolva is around the above protocol, damn confusing :doh:

I have been educating myself a bit more in regard to HCG, LH and leydig cells etc. I have found some of the literature really handy and has some useful info, but it doesn't really answer my question.....

from what i understand from reading some of your guys posts, is that introducing another drug like HCG is just another substance that can have a negative impact on your HPTA but to a point can have a desensitizing affect on your leydig cells?? please correct me if im wrong im just trying to understand things a bit more.

I would like to know in terms of testicular atrophy, that it will benefit from me administering this while on cycle. I also remember reading in a few cases (1st time cycle users) where people have chosen to blast HCG in the last 4 weeks of their cycle @ 1000IUs per week, could this be a better approach.

I do understand the whole "more drugs is not better", however i just need to get a better understanding around it all. I appreciate all your guys input.

Basically up to you bro, make your own decision on what you feel is best, if you keep reading and reading you'll never make up your mind coz one personwill tell you this and the other person will tell you something else. My advice would be the following:

- Drop your test dosage as you said, same with the nolva anything 20/20/10/10 or above will be fine.

- Wouldn't bother with hCG on your cycle, if you can afford it and it's cheap/legit then give it a whirl if you really want to, don't use it during PCT though and avoid taking more than around 500-1000iu.

- Eat and Train hard

[Seeking]

thanks again for all your info and insights guys, it really helps trying to understand all this stuff

So looking back at my future cycle, if i were to change the test E dosage to 350mg p/week, still pinned twice as usual.

In addition dropping Nolva dosage to around 40/40/20/20, or would 20/20/10/10 suffice as Riccardo has stated......... It just seems that most places i seem to read a recommended PCT dose (bodybuilder recommended ) for nolva is around the above protocol, damn confusing :doh:

I have been educating myself a bit more in regard to HCG, LH and leydig cells etc. I have found some of the literature really handy and has some useful info, but it doesn't really answer my question.....

from what i understand from reading some of your guys posts, is that introducing another drug like HCG is just another substance that can have a negative impact on your HPTA but to a point can have a desensitizing affect on your leydig cells?? please correct me if im wrong im just trying to understand things a bit more.

I would like to know in terms of testicular atrophy, that it will benefit from me administering this while on cycle. I also remember reading in a few cases (1st time cycle users) where people have chosen to blast HCG in the last 4 weeks of their cycle @ 1000IUs per week, could this be a better approach.

I do understand the whole "more drugs is not better", however i just need to get a better understanding around it all. I appreciate all your guys input.

Basically up to you bro, make your own decision on what you feel is best, if you keep reading and reading you'll never make up your mind coz one personwill tell you this and the other person will tell you something else. My advice would be the following:

- Drop your test dosage as you said, same with the nolva anything 20/20/10/10 or above will be fine.

- Wouldn't bother with hCG on your cycle, if you can afford it and it's cheap/legit then give it a whirl if you really want to, don't use it during PCT though and avoid taking more than around 500-1000iu.

- Eat and Train hard

Thanks Riccardo, i will take your advice on board and keep the research going. Eating and training are second nature to me, a few things to be fine tuned and i should be set to go, many thanks again :grin: