I was thinking...

[Seeking]

Hi all i already have a profile on this forum i just wanted to post something here and remain anonymous due to work, personal life etc.

I have been training with sports since I was a teenager. I first started out in the gym while playing league when I was 16, although I did not stick to any religious routine, I made sure I went 3-4 times a week. That has basically how it’s been right up until about two years ago.

I wanted to get serious with training and more or less the nutrition side. So I decided to adopt a sort of bodybulding approach in regards to diet and training. Scheduled a good training regime 5-6 times a week, also went through a couple of cut and bulk phases where I’ve had some good results, latest cut managed to get to around 8-9% bf @ around 104kgs which I was pretty happy with my efforts and im currently bulking at the moment.

I was always intrigued with the use of PEDs and started researching a long time ago, never with the intent on using, just as a general interest. However thought patterns and obviously goals have changed, im thinking of jumping on my first cycle in the upcoming months.

Current stats….

24 years old

13-15% BF

6ft 2’

118.1kgs

I have been thinking about this for a while. I realise I have only been doing the “right” thing in regards to training and nutrition for a couple of years, however im at the point where im getting really serious about things, goals are to enter my first bodybuilding comp this year and do well. I realise that there are no magical formulas or shortcuts, I just thought that using this as an extra tool for my long term goals physique wise.

This is what I was thinking for my first ride…..

Weeks 1-12 Test E @ 500mg per week (pinning 2x 250mgs a week)

Weeks 1-12 .5mg Adex every other day

Weeks 4-12 500ius of HCG split into 2x250ius pins per week (same days as test)

2 weeks after last test pin start PCT..

Nolva 50/50/25/25

It will be a while yet before I even start this cycle as I would like to research a bit more yet but I do have some questions that I would like some opinions on.

Is it too early for someone like me to consider using? Should I continue to make as much gains as possible natty with training and nutrition?

Is HCG fully necessary on a test only cycle?i just wanna look after the big boys as a pre caution and ive read that it is highly recommended regardless if it’s a first cycle.

Apologies for the long story, and I realise I can find answers to my questions via google etc. I just wanted to know and hear any advice from people on this forum.

Churs fellaz!! :grin:

[Riccardo]

First cycle I would recommend 250mg-375mg/week. nolva at 20/20/10/10. Don't bother with HCG.

[yeelang]

I run HCG every cycle

necessary? No

[I Declare War]

I run HCG every cycle

If you have a good source and can get legit pharma hcg (and can afford it)... then there's really no reason not to use it. It makes coming off cycle so much easier...

[crazyfacials]

I run HCG every cycle

If you have a good source and can get legit pharma hcg (and can afford it)... then there's really no reason not to use it. It makes coming off cycle so much easier...

you remind me of when quagmire discover the internet and got a super arm! when will it be my turn to have a handy shandy arm!

[I Declare War]

I run HCG every cycle

If you have a good source and can get legit pharma hcg (and can afford it)... then there's really no reason not to use it. It makes coming off cycle so much easier...

you remind me of when quagmire discover the internet and got a super arm! when will it be my turn to have a handy shandy arm!

When you start working out consistently... that's when you'll start looking sexy like me. You want big triceps? Heavy close-grip bench & weighted dips is all you need. Don't ask me about biceps... I don't like mine, apart from when I'm really lean... then they look OK.

[Leeroid]

LOL at IDW

OP, u sound like u have patience and intelligence, two very important attributes of which I only have one.

Good natty stats so u should be a sickunt once u juice up. Just try and get as lean as u can before starting.

Cycle looks good.

I bid thee good fortune

[Kiwijuice]

First cycle I would recommend 250mg-375mg/week. nolva at 20/20/10/10. Don't bother with HCG.

I agree with you saying to take a low dose of test but not with the nolva, seen you say the same thing in another thread... Have you taken it before? All good reading something in a book but experience is another thing. Yea hcg not necessary but makes recovery a lot easier.

[Riccardo]

First cycle I would recommend 250mg-375mg/week. nolva at 20/20/10/10. Don't bother with HCG.

I agree with you saying to take a low dose of test but not with the nolva, seen you say the same thing in another thread... Have you taken it before? All good reading something in a book but experience is another thing. Yea hcg not necessary but makes recovery a lot easier.

Well firstly let me just say that I don't agree on using SERMS at all. If one was to use them, multiple studies suggest that 20mg/day is the best dosage to boost testosterone production with minimal side effects, this is the dosage pretty much every study published has used. There doesn't appear to be any benefit in going above that unless maybe you are doing a heavy aromatizable cycle. Even then you're better off tapering off everything.

When it comes to pharmacology, more is not necessarily better.

As for hCG, I don't understand why anyone would want to create another level of suppression in their HPTA? There is really no use for hCG, it desensitizes leydig cells in your testes to Leutinizing hormone so that when you eventually cease using hCG it takes a while for your testes to become sensitive to your own body's natural LH, thus prolonging your recovery. The use of hCG in males is limited to increasing fertility in HRT such that guys have enough viable sperm for their partners to conceive. When you are "shut down" your testes actually become more sensitive to LH due to receptor up-regulation. All that hCG will do is prolong your recovery.

[Kiwijuice]

First cycle I would recommend 250mg-375mg/week. nolva at 20/20/10/10. Don't bother with HCG.

I agree with you saying to take a low dose of test but not with the nolva, seen you say the same thing in another thread... Have you taken it before? All good reading something in a book but experience is another thing. Yea hcg not necessary but makes recovery a lot easier.

Well firstly let me just say that I don't agree on using SERMS at all. If one was to use them, multiple studies suggest that 20mg/day is the best dosage to boost testosterone production with minimal side effects, this is the dosage pretty much every study published has used. There doesn't appear to be any benefit in going above that unless maybe you are doing a heavy aromatizable cycle. Even then you're better off tapering off everything.

When it comes to pharmacology, more is not necessarily better.

As for hCG, I don't understand why anyone would want to create another level of suppression in their HPTA? There is really no use for hCG, it desensitizes leydig cells in your testes to Leutinizing hormone so that when you eventually cease using hCG it takes a while for your testes to become sensitive to your own body's natural LH, thus prolonging your recovery. The use of hCG in males is limited to increasing fertility in HRT such that guys have enough viable sperm for their partners to conceive. When you are "shut down" your testes actually become more sensitive to LH due to receptor up-regulation. All that hCG will do is prolong your recovery.

how come you dont agree with serms ? what would you use for pct then ? also interesting about hcg never knew that.

[yeelang]

First cycle I would recommend 250mg-375mg/week. nolva at 20/20/10/10. Don't bother with HCG.

I agree with you saying to take a low dose of test but not with the nolva, seen you say the same thing in another thread... Have you taken it before? All good reading something in a book but experience is another thing. Yea hcg not necessary but makes recovery a lot easier.

Well firstly let me just say that I don't agree on using SERMS at all. If one was to use them, multiple studies suggest that 20mg/day is the best dosage to boost testosterone production with minimal side effects, this is the dosage pretty much every study published has used. There doesn't appear to be any benefit in going above that unless maybe you are doing a heavy aromatizable cycle. Even then you're better off tapering off everything.

When it comes to pharmacology, more is not necessarily better.

As for hCG, I don't understand why anyone would want to create another level of suppression in their HPTA? There is really no use for hCG, it desensitizes leydig cells in your testes to Leutinizing hormone so that when you eventually cease using hCG it takes a while for your testes to become sensitive to your own body's natural LH, thus prolonging your recovery. The use of hCG in males is limited to increasing fertility in HRT such that guys have enough viable sperm for their partners to conceive. When you are "shut down" your testes actually become more sensitive to LH due to receptor up-regulation. All that hCG will do is prolong your recovery.

The only study I have read showing a desensitization to leydig cells has been in mice taking 100IU single dosage and in that study sensitization began again after 9 days.

Do you have any other studies?

I run the same dosage to mimic the LH I would have naturally, during my cycle, not as a defibrillator at the end of my cycle. There is no issue of receptor up-regulation and I haven't seen any study showing desensitization at FDA approved dosages which are well above 500IU/week.

[Riccardo]

how come you dont agree with serms ? what would you use for pct then ? also interesting about hcg never knew that.

I'd rather taper off and for this reason I wouldn't bother with SERMS as aromatase inhibitors like anastrazole are a better accompaniment to this protocol. Adding more PCT drugs into the mix just means more poly-pharmacy and more side effects.

With regard to hCG, receptor down regulation is just a reality for receptor mediated drug therapy. While the literature on this particular topic is scarce I have seen one showing the effects in humans as well as rats, albeit the human study was with large dosages greater than 1000iu. Regardless, while you may be able to safely administer therapeutic doses of hCG without inducing primary hypogonadism, why would you? LH is not the problem when it comes to coming off cycle, LH concentrations rise simultaneously with a fall in serum androgen levels and it is a myth that all exogenous testosterone must clear your system before your HPTA restarts. Your body cannot tell the difference between endogenous and exogenous testosterone.

So if hCG mimics LH yet serum LH rises with falling androgen concentrations anyway, whats the point in administering it? Having said that it is important to note that when I say androgens I mean testosterone. Other AAS which have different binding affinities for the androgen receptor may still be suppressing LH production in spite of negligible levels of circulating testosterone. For this reason I have seen it been recommended that a low dose test bridge (100mg/ week) be used before the taper in order to allow time for other AAS to clear your system. The bridge should be equal to at least 4x the longest half life of any co-administered androgens/anabolics.

[Seeking]

wow thanks for all of your replies guys, learning something new everyday :nod:

So i figured i would reduce the amount of test when i do decide to cycle, instead of 500mg go for something around 300-400mg...

as for the HCG it seems i have a bit more research i must do myself in order to understand this drug a bit more, end of the day if its going to make it easier coming off or anything thats advantageous towards my goals i will definitely have it on hand, but for now more research

I honestly couldnt say if my source was 100% pharma grade stuff, so i will have to trust this source in that regard.

As for PCT again from reading around this was a base guideline to follow, however if i dont need as much as Riccardo has stated i would prefer to take less if this means less sides etc. Again i need to do a bit more homework.

Thanks guys for your input and i welcome any more advice you have for me. :grin:

[Kiwijuice]

Your body cannot tell the difference between endogenous and exogenous testosterone.

i dont understand that bit, if that was true then we wouldnt have shut down in the first place correct ??

[Riccardo]

Your brain senses the amount of sex hormones in your blood and adjusts the secretion of LH accordingly. Its doing this all the time. It doesn't matter whether its secreted from your testes or injected into the body, testosterone is testosterone. Your brain only senses how much is in your blood not where it came from.

[I Declare War]

Just to be a bit nit picky.... Riccardo is wrong when he says it's the brain that regulates testosterone.

The pituitary gland regulates Luteinizing hormone, which acts upon the leydig cells of the testes, which regulates tesosterone production.

The pituitary gland is not part of the brain per se. It is a protrusion off the bottom of the hypothalamus at the base of the brain.

I myself have used HCG several times after periods of being on steroids for up to 1 year at a time. Without HCG I've failed to come off because of the crash that happens several weeks post cycle. But I've never failed to come off when I've used HCG post cycle to restore testicular volume.

For me, the benefits of HCG's restorative function to testicular volume far outweigh potential suppressive effect on the leydig cells - because it allows me to actually come off steroids, rather than become a depressed mess.

That being said, I've only ever used HCG for periods of about 3 weeks post cycle, never for maintaining testicular size during cycle.

[Riccardo]

Just to be a bit nit picky.... Riccardo is wrong when he says it's the brain that regulates testosterone.

The pituitary gland regulates Luteinizing hormone, which acts upon the leydig cells of the testes, which regulates tesosterone production.

The pituitary gland is not part of the brain per se. It is a protrusion off the bottom of the hypothalamus at the base of the brain.

I myself have used HCG several times after periods of being on steroids for up to 1 year at a time. Several times I've failed to come off because of the crash that happens several weeks post cycle... but, I've never failed to come off when I've used HCG post cycle to restore testicular volume. The benefits of HCG's restorative function to testicular volume far outweigh potential suppressive effect on the leydig cells. That being said, I've only ever used HCG for periods of about 3 weeks post cycle, never for maintaining testicular size during cycle.

Thanks for that but I was using layman's terms to make it more understandable and actually GnRH is released from the hypothalamus which also senses sex hormone levels. GnRH acts to stimulate the release of FSH and LH from the pituitary. The hypothalamus is a structure in the brain so yes the brain does regulate testosterone. How did you know you were still suppressed? Just subjectively or did you have bloods done? As I mentioned in my earlier post, its imperative to allow other AAS to clear first before going off test as they have different binding affinities for the androgen receptor and can keep you suppressed well into you pct.

[I Declare War]

Just to be a bit nit picky.... Riccardo is wrong when he says it's the brain that regulates testosterone.

The pituitary gland regulates Luteinizing hormone, which acts upon the leydig cells of the testes, which regulates tesosterone production.

The pituitary gland is not part of the brain per se. It is a protrusion off the bottom of the hypothalamus at the base of the brain.

I myself have used HCG several times after periods of being on steroids for up to 1 year at a time. Several times I've failed to come off because of the crash that happens several weeks post cycle... but, I've never failed to come off when I've used HCG post cycle to restore testicular volume. The benefits of HCG's restorative function to testicular volume far outweigh potential suppressive effect on the leydig cells. That being said, I've only ever used HCG for periods of about 3 weeks post cycle, never for maintaining testicular size during cycle.

Thanks for that but I was using layman's terms to make it more understandable. How did you know you were still suppressed? Just subjectively or did you have bloods done? As I mentioned in my earlier post, its imperative to allow other AAS to clear first before going off test as they have different binding affinities for the androgen receptor and can keep you suppressed well into you pct.

Just subjective really. Without HCG... for weeks after cycle absolutely no sex drive whatsoever, no morning wood, I feel depressed and don't feel like a man at all... it feels like I've been neutered I guess. At about 8 weeks out without HCG, still feeling like this... I've just said f*ck it and gone back on gear. I've done that twice after really long blast/cruise periods.

With HCG, it's a different story, the testes grow in size and you start getting feeling back within them all within a week. I start HCG about one and a half weeks before the testosterone has cleared out of my system and use it for up to three weeks. For me, there's about 2 weeks post HCG where there's a bit of a dip but there's no all out crash.

I agree that it's imperative to let other AAS clear the system when coming off. Especially the 19-nor-testosterones Nandrolone and Trenbolone. If you've been on for a long time, it's best to drop those about a month before coming off to let their effects on prolactin and progesterone normalise.

In the case of short cycles such as the OP's proposed cycle, I'd recommend HCG if he can get it without too much fuss. Failing that, recovery from a one-off relatively short cycle shouldn't be too hard.

[I Declare War]

Ah yes, GnRH... I had forgotten about that. It all starts in the brain.

[Android]

Your brain senses the amount of sex hormones in your blood and adjusts the secretion of LH accordingly. Its doing this all the time. It doesn't matter whether its secreted from your testes or injected into the body, testosterone is testosterone. Your brain only senses how much is in your blood not where it came from.

oh cool!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

so if I just take enough exogenous gear to keep under the 20-30nmol level my body won't shut down natural production cheers for that insight

[yeelang]

how come you dont agree with serms ? what would you use for pct then ? also interesting about hcg never knew that.

I'd rather taper off and for this reason I wouldn't bother with SERMS as aromatase inhibitors like anastrazole are a better accompaniment to this protocol. Adding more PCT drugs into the mix just means more poly-pharmacy and more side effects.

With regard to hCG, receptor down regulation is just a reality for receptor mediated drug therapy. While the literature on this particular topic is scarce I have seen one showing the effects in humans as well as rats, albeit the human study was with large dosages greater than 1000iu. Regardless, while you may be able to safely administer therapeutic doses of hCG without inducing primary hypogonadism, why would you? LH is not the problem when it comes to coming off cycle, LH concentrations rise simultaneously with a fall in serum androgen levels and it is a myth that all exogenous testosterone must clear your system before your HPTA restarts. Your body cannot tell the difference between endogenous and exogenous testosterone.

So if hCG mimics LH yet serum LH rises with falling androgen concentrations anyway, whats the point in administering it? Having said that it is important to note that when I say androgens I mean testosterone. Other AAS which have different binding affinities for the androgen receptor may still be suppressing LH production in spite of negligible levels of circulating testosterone. For this reason I have seen it been recommended that a low dose test bridge (100mg/ week) be used before the taper in order to allow time for other AAS to clear your system. The bridge should be equal to at least 4x the longest half life of any co-administered androgens/anabolics.

None of your posts seem to address the positive benefits on running hCG during cycle to mitigate testicular atrophy and other associated side effects of low LH.

This is why hCG is used, mimicking natural LH levels for its affect on Lydig cells, while you are already suppressed.

For perspective are you suggesting that it's pragmatic to run longer cycles (12 weeks, 24 weeks, blast/cruise) without stimulating your leydig cells?

[Riccardo]

From your posts it's clear that you believe people are only taking hCG to restore LH at the end of a cycle. None of your posts seem to address the positive benefits on running hCG during cycle to mitigate testicular atrophy and other associated side effects of low LH.

This is why hCG is used, mimicking natural LH levels for its affect on Lydig cells, while you are already suppressed.

For perspective are you suggesting that it's pragmatic to run longer cycles (12 weeks, 24 weeks, blast/cruise) without stimulating your leydig cells?

Im talking more about pct but even so why run hCG during cycle? To not have small balls?

Android, actually you can run more than a 100mg of test a week and still maintain LH secretion, like I said LH secretion resumes with lowering serum concentrations of sex hormone. Im not sure of the point of your post?

[Leeroid]

Your brain senses the amount of sex hormones in your blood and adjusts the secretion of LH accordingly. Its doing this all the time. It doesn't matter whether its secreted from your testes or injected into the body, testosterone is testosterone. Your brain only senses how much is in your blood not where it came from.

oh cool!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

so if I just take enough exogenous gear to keep under the 20-30nmol level my body won't shut down natural production cheers for that insight

No because your body is already producing endogenous testosterone and any amount of test on top of that, no matter how little is still excess and will be recognised by the brain as such

[I Declare War]

Im talking more about pct but even so why run hCG during cycle? To not have small balls?

Small balls shoot small loads. Who doesn't like blasting a massive load. 8)

Looking forward to yeelang's asnswer.

[Android]

From your posts it's clear that you believe people are only taking hCG to restore LH at the end of a cycle. None of your posts seem to address the positive benefits on running hCG during cycle to mitigate testicular atrophy and other associated side effects of low LH.

This is why hCG is used, mimicking natural LH levels for its affect on Lydig cells, while you are already suppressed.

For perspective are you suggesting that it's pragmatic to run longer cycles (12 weeks, 24 weeks, blast/cruise) without stimulating your leydig cells?

Im talking more about pct but even so why run hCG during cycle? To not have small balls?

Android, actually you can run more than a 100mg of test a week and still maintain LH secretion, like I said LH secretion resumes with lowering serum concentrations of sex hormone. Im not sure of the point of your post?

I'm truly excited by what you wrote.

So many people on this forum often post about their concern about permanent shut-down when on TRT (mrgeeky and others)...you should tell them what you know dude it will put their minds at ease to know that they are not shutting down their LH production taking "more than" 100mg Test every single week.

A lot of them are worried they need to cycle or they will permanently shut themselves down, your take on this would be really helpful to them.

that's my point :shock: