Legs Stalled

[weener lad]

G'Day NZBB long time no talk :pfft:

I'm just after some educated advice as I seem to have hit a brick wall with my legs.

As many of you who know me from competing will agree, separation in my quads (and size) has always been a weak area of mine regardless of the work I put into them. My Hammies and Glutes are fine and are only getting better all the time so I have them sorted.

The major issue is a few years back (training with BigMD) I herniated a disc in my lower back and now after years of mistreatment I can't squat. My workouts are always changing and my lifts are constantly getting better (deads 240kg for 6, pressing 560kg 6 on a 6 set pattern) but my bloody quads will not grow or separate.

Soooo any ideas????????????????????? and please no "bra you must squat" comments. I love squatting but can't anymore.

[genetic freek]

Do you have Any range of motion problems now on

Other exersizes?

Are you doing high or low reps generally?

Can you feel your quads working when you train them?

[weener lad]

Hey GF

Generally no range issues. When squatting (correctly ATG) my back switches off and forces the weight into my lower back (L5 S1 disc) hence squatting is now a no go.

Mate the quads and getting hit, plenty of blood flowing in and getting the required DOMS that comes with a nasty Quad workout.

My training varies but I do tend to keep the reps at the lower (Max lifts around 6 reps, never more than 12 at the start) end unless I'm doing walking lunges or extensions then it's go to they stop.

[PeterDolan]

15-25 reps with about 20 sets in total for quads could be well worth a try

[genetic freek]

Hmm I guess you could get 100 replies with 100 different training methods and workouts.

I would say how hard are u training them, can you train them harder! I personally think 6 reps is too low, I would advice 12 - 15 reps. Pick a a weight you can get 8 reps with but do 12-15. It's mind over matter with legs.

I would suggest you get a good sports massage over there. They can give you feed back on if there is anything funny going on with your quads & how healthy The muscle feels. Most people's ITB is extremely tight - if it is your quads won't grow. Releasing that And loosening the muscle facia will help with growth And blood flow to the quad.

[weener lad]

Thanks for your replies guys, every new idea or thought helps. I will adapt some things and get back with results.

I'm actually booked in next week to see a sports massage to sort some shit out.

[PeterDolan]

Also, are the neural pathways to your quads working completely? If the fibers aren't being innervated then no matter how hard you hit 'em, nothing will happen

[Matrix]

Hi mate,

I have watched the WFF Christchurch show a few times now and would suggest that the problems that you have getting your quads to cut up are largely genetic as your lower back, hamstrings and glutes were all striated at that show (wicked conditioning at that show BTW).

It may be that your quads hold a (comparitively) hi level of fluid and body fat even though you are competing at low single digit bodyfat levels.

Your body may also have a slightly thicker fascia over the quads than over your hamstrings, so some roller work may help here.

IMO your legs cut up in the reverse to what most (say 80%) of guys do. Most male competitors will experience feathering in their outside quad, then inner quad and then progressively deeper/clearer seperation in their sartiorious and hip flexors as they get leaner and dryer.

This isnt necassarily a bad thing to have, infact most competitors would be bloody envious of how much definition you achieve in your posterior chain, however there may be a few things you can look at to try and improve the definition in your quads.

One would be to add some hi rep /hi tension time work to your quad days, this could benefit in two ways. 1 is that a couple of long/constant tension sets will increase capillarisation throughout the quad and perhaps show more vascularity and 2 if you add this in near the end of your workouts your body may derive some energy substate from fat sites around your quads providing your workout was fairly long in duration.

As quads are more slow twitch than hamstrings, changing the rep range of your quads days may provide a stimulus for change.

Another tactic could be to stop training your quads even further back from a show as this may leave them with less inflammation and more seperation.

In the end, the muscle will get bigger through training resulting in deeper seperation or smaller through detraining. The hard part is getting whats on top of the muscle (a mixture of fascia, fat,fluid and skin) thin enough to let the muscle show through and as you compete quite dry looking, i dont think taking this any further would necassarily help that much.

Regarding training, you dont need to squat, if you can DL pain and compression free you could add a hex/trap bar DL as a squat substitute and if your gym is well equipt there are heaps of machines that can be put to good use. Some big names have built great quads by not overdoing it squatting (Jay, Flex etc), I would certainly try some higher rep Leg Pressing (on several different machines, not just the sled), Machine Hack Squatting, DB Lunging, Extensions, Sissy squatting and even inner/outer thigh machine to increase thickness from the front.

One final trick would be to pick the brain of a competitor who has worked out some tactics to solve this problem, however sometimes these tactics arent terribly healthy or fun! but an extreme look for a day takes a superhuman effort!

Alot of guys do alot of hi rep lunging in the last month or so before comp day which tends to work wonders,

Good luck with the next comp mate!

[Riccardo]

How are you with front squats? I feel they place less stress on my lower back. Increasing volume could be a way to go, either training them multiple times a week or adding in more reps on a single legs day. Priming your quads with extensions before hand can also work, Just go really light and no where near failure or fatigue. It gets all the motor units in your quads firing before you do your main exercise so you get more out of it.

[trainlikeafreak]

How are you with front squats? I feel they place less stress on my lower back. Increasing volume could be a way to go, either training them multiple times a week or adding in more reps on a single legs day. Priming your quads with extensions before hand can also work, Just go really light and no where near failure or fatigue. It gets all the motor units in your quads firing before you do your main exercise so you get more out of it.

yeah or try doing them right at the end the quad workout. will feel weird the first couple of times

[soundsgood]

Fantastic reply there Matrix, feel smarter for having read it :nod:

I know you said you can't squat Weener lad but on top of the light weight front squats at the end of the workout suggestion which I agree with, have you tried squatting in a smith machine? Moving feet forward and back you may find a position that takes the emphasis off your lower back and more onto your quads?

[weener lad]

Some top replies there guys and all the info is greatly appreciated.

PD.....Been watching some Kai vids fella just joking. I hear what your saying and maybe some lighter weights will help that connection occur again which has been slightly lost in the "lift big get big" mentality with my legs. Oddly enough I don't think this way with the rest of my body.

Matrix.....Great post all very good thoughts that I will take on board.

Riccardo & SG...I haven't actually tried front squats for years and to be honest it hadn't even clicked that they would be an option, so thanks for flicking the switch.

I do pre-exhaust with leg extensions most workouts as I don't like heavy extensions and the pressure they put on the knees. I may just adjust the way I do them and go back to what I was shown a long time ago by Rich Parnham.

I will get a plan of attack together and post it up next week and get some thoughts.

Have a good weekend all..............I'm off to blow a weeks training by drinking myself stupid at the Bledisloe Cup match :grin:

[vracula]

Ok i'm sorry if you have tried this and it has got you discomfort but have you tried the goblet squat with the dumbell? It feels awesome like the perefct squat with virtually no lower back pain.

[Danomyte]

Sound advice from everyone here.

Quality post Matrix. I like Matrix's suggestion on using a trap deadlift bar and lunges.

Though my goals and training are different to yours, I always find those two exercises hit my quads as good, if not better than front and back squats.

[weener lad]

Hey all

Sorry it's taken so long to get back to this topic. I had an accident (well I was pissed and fell off the back of a ute at a mates stag do!) so due to injury I was only able to get into the gym for the first time this week. Even then it was a cautious effort.

Anyway I was thinking along the lines of the pattern below when only able to do legs once a week. I tried this out once before the accident and yesterday.

Warm up (tread mill, hi incline walk)

(These are pre-exhausting exercises)

Leg extensions 3-4 sets

Kick backs 3-4 sets

(Working)

Walking Lunges 3 x sets 40kg BB

Stiff leg Deads 3 x sets max 100kg

Trap Bar Deads 4 x sets max 120kg

Front squats to failure 60kg

I have purposely kept the weights light to ensure a slow and controlled movement focusing soley on the muscles required for the lift. Most sets are involving around 20 reps.

Thoughts?

[Matrix]

My thoughts:

On Stag Do: Big Effort!

On Training: How'd the legs feel after this session?, were your quads feeling the DOMS more than the Hamstrings or 50/50 or were the hamstrings more sore?

Usually soreness from the first change of workout or first workout after a layoff is a good guage of where the stress is going, especially if you were using slow negatives.

The lunges and Stiff legs should have fatigued the hamstrings enough to get a powerful contaction of the quads during the trap bar DL's and Front Squats as long as these first two exercises didnt fatigue you too much as to have performance on the last two exercises suffer.

Taking short steps on the lunges can also help shift the emphasis of them from glutes/hammies to quads.