intermittent fasting for 8:30-5'ers

[trainlikeafreak]

ummm eating regular meals eg every 2-3 hrs keeps metabolism ticking over.. theres my reason.

[Matrix]

People get so passionate about what works well and what doesnt regarding nutrition,

Even scientific evidence can be skewed and debunked if the quality and parameters of the testing arent robust putting it on the same par as bro science. Look how many "Scientific" studies are discredited or contradicted by scientists every year - enough to continue to fill research journals every month.

You only have to look at the changes in the food pyramisd over the last 10 years to observe this.

The scientists that developed this 10 -15 years ago werent Bro Scientists, they were top Dieticians and Scientists that were employed by their govenrments to provide national guidelines, yet as research and observations of a world wide population that is becoming obesity were observed, this pyramid has been altered to reflect the new research. Knowledge grows every year.

The quality of any "Scientific Research" usually comes down to how much money is put into the testing/research and how tightley the subjects are monitored as well as factors such as the training age of the subjetcs,quality of the training and supervision, stress levels and external factors along with if the tester has any business interests in profitting from favourable results backing up their claims.

Personally I like a 50/50 balance between science and what I have learnt anecdoatlly and apply this to both eating and training.

Our knowledge on both changes every year due to research of both theoritical studies and feedback from athletes and coaches who change their own training (sometimes instinctively) to ellict better results which are then studied by scientists to see why these results occur.

[bbingprincess]

at the end of the day its going to be hard fucking work.

Make a plan and stick to it.

Key points here. As I said earlier, typical dieting principles still apply. Although I'd actually suggest fasting is pretty simple...Don't eat for a while, then eat a lot. Less food preparation, less thinking about food, less time eating, seems simpler to me.

intermitted fasting is stupid..why would u want to slow ur metabolism down?

Seriously :doh: You brought this up in the meal timing thread and it was debunked. Intermittent fasting does not slow down your metabolism, sure if you fast for longer than 72 hours or so, but not the 16-24 hours that is regularly practiced. Either back up your statement with some hard evidence, or stop spouting this bullshit broscience. Baseless claims.

yeah post a cut and paste from the Internet to prove what you're saying :roll:

[Riccardo]

Good post. The thing is, everybody does something for a reason and that reasoning is based on science whether it be good/bad/outdated/new/theoretical science it doesn't matter. Like you mentioned, this must be tempered with a little trial and error, anecdotal observation and experience. However what I don't get is why people get so offended by other peoples methods when those methods are clearly supported by both strong science and real world results. Instead of offering up any kind of evidence beyond what they have heard in the gym locker room people start claiming things like IF slows your metabolism without any kind of explanation, scientific or otherwise.

TLAF contributed (I use this term loosely) to the last thread on meal timing in which, as Phedder mentioned, the whole metabolism thing was debunked. This isn't just shown in the scientific literature we discussed but by real world results. I find it laughable to suggest that these people who have gotten to single digit body fat, while actually getting stronger and maintaining or increasing lean body tissue, have slow metabolisms. This is no mean feat when you take a look at many of the journals on here of guys who while also on AAS struggle to even maintain their strength and energy levels while on a traditional diet.

High frequency meals spread throughout the day works, its worked for literally millions of people and will continue to do so regardless of how effective IF is. Its horses for courses, If you don't like IF or it doesn't get the results you want then sweet as, find something that does whether it be 8 meals across the day, 3 meals or whatever. The important thing is that it works for you and you stick to it. No one is saying your wrong for doing something that works and gets you to your goals. However, don't spout nonsense or get offended because people are getting just as good results using different methods, especially when you haven't even tried them yourself.

[Riccardo]

at the end of the day its going to be hard fucking work.

Make a plan and stick to it.

Key points here. As I said earlier, typical dieting principles still apply. Although I'd actually suggest fasting is pretty simple...Don't eat for a while, then eat a lot. Less food preparation, less thinking about food, less time eating, seems simpler to me.

intermitted fasting is stupid..why would u want to slow ur metabolism down?

Seriously :doh: You brought this up in the meal timing thread and it was debunked. Intermittent fasting does not slow down your metabolism, sure if you fast for longer than 72 hours or so, but not the 16-24 hours that is regularly practiced. Either back up your statement with some hard evidence, or stop spouting this bullshit broscience. Baseless claims.

yeah post a cut and paste from the Internet to prove what you're saying :roll:

lol what? Go read the thread before commenting. Where the hell else do you get hard evidence from? The point is to find the evidence and then look at it, discuss it and come to some conclusion taking into account real world application and evidence. That's exactly what people were doing.

[bbingprincess]

Key points here. As I said earlier, typical dieting principles still apply. Although I'd actually suggest fasting is pretty simple...Don't eat for a while, then eat a lot. Less food preparation, less thinking about food, less time eating, seems simpler to me.

Seriously :doh: You brought this up in the meal timing thread and it was debunked. Intermittent fasting does not slow down your metabolism, sure if you fast for longer than 72 hours or so, but not the 16-24 hours that is regularly practiced. Either back up your statement with some hard evidence, or stop spouting this bullshit broscience. Baseless claims.

yeah post a cut and paste from the Internet to prove what you're saying :roll:

lol what? Go read the thread before commenting. Where the hell else do you get hard evidence from? The point is to find the evidence and then look at it, discuss it and come to some conclusion taking into account real world application and evidence. That's exactly what people were doing.

haha hard evidence from the Internet, okay.

[Riccardo]

yeah post a cut and paste from the Internet to prove what you're saying :roll:

lol what? Go read the thread before commenting. Where the hell else do you get hard evidence from? The point is to find the evidence and then look at it, discuss it and come to some conclusion taking into account real world application and evidence. That's exactly what people were doing.

haha hard evidence from the Internet, okay.

FYI journal articles are peer reviewed and published in hard copy. It isn't just some website, it is actual scientific research done in labs done by real world scientists. Not just some guys opinion. Do you even know what a scientific journal is?

[greemah]

Damn this shit annoys me. Thanks Phedder and Riccardo for posting good replies so I can forget about the ignorant posts haha

To the op:

I work 8-5 and workout after work, and IF works well for me (following the leangains guide):

12-1 PM or around lunch/noon: Meal one. Approximately 20-25% of daily total calorie intake.

4-5 PM: Pre-workout meal. Roughly equal to the first meal.

8-9 PM: Post-workout meal (largest meal).

[Hitro]

I'm also doing IF and was a big sceptic at first.

Used to do the 6 smaller meals a day approach and it was ok but even on a calorie deficit I couldnt really cut to the body fat % I was looking for.

Started IF 2 months ago now and really enjoying it and the results I am getting.

I too am a 830am to 5pm'er (well theoretically speaking...) but training first thing in the morning. I have my last meal 8pm and then fast through til 12 the next day with training at 6-7am. I on the same cals as I was on 6 small meals but consumed all between 12 and 8pm and getting much better results that what I have ever done before. First week was hard work as I was pretty hungry in the mornings and missing my proats but now its easy and on some days I may even fast and hour or two longer.

Its not for everyone but I thought it was worth a shot and I'm glad I did try it.

[PeterDolan]

My questions are that if meal timing is irrelevant, then why do IF and secondly, are you really fasting if meal timing has zero effect on the body?

Not trying to be antagonistic, this has been something that has puzzled me since this has been discussed (or attacked if you will) on these boards. This may have been answered in one of your long winded posts already, so apologies if that is the case, but I hardly read those

[Riccardo]

My questions are that if meal timing is irrelevant, then why do IF and secondly, are you really fasting if meal timing has zero effect on the body?

Not trying to be antagonistic, this has been something that has puzzled me since this has been discussed (or attacked if you will) on these boards. This may have been answered in one of your long winded posts already, so apologies if that is the case, but I hardly read those

Because IF works a lot better for some people, particularly those who can't stomach food in the morning or have lives beyond eating all day err day. Individual circumstances dictate when people are able to eat and therefore affects their ability to diet. The fact that both IF and high frequency feeding works shows that meal timing is irrelevant. Fasting just refers to going an extended period of time without food.

Its just disputing the dogma that if you don't eat every 5 seconds your are going to lose all your muscle and waste away to nothing. Fasting prompts GH release which breaks down fat and preserves muscle mass. This is why you don't shrivel away on an IF diet. It's not saying that if you choose to eat every 2 hours your doing it wrong.

The goal for every bodybuilder is the same, get ripped while maintaining as much muscle mass as possible. Does it really matter how you get there? No, its the end result that's important.

[PeterDolan]

Fasting prompts GH release which breaks down fat and preserves muscle mass. This is why you don't shrivel away on an IF diet.

But don't acute changes in hormone levels have little to no effect on body composition? I have read a couple of studies to this effect and pretty sure that Phedder or yourself state this? I may have got you guys confused with someone else.

I agree that the whole 2-3 hours has been taken overboard. I'm just saying that if the people behind the diet believe that meal timing is irrelevant, then why refer to it as IF in the first place?

Again, I'm not trying to be antagonistic, just trying to understand your side of it a little better

[Riccardo]

Fasting prompts GH release which breaks down fat and preserves muscle mass. This is why you don't shrivel away on an IF diet.

But don't acute changes in hormone levels have little to no effect on body composition? I have read a couple of studies to this effect and pretty sure that Phedder or yourself state this? I may have got you guys confused with someone else.

I agree that the whole 2-3 hours has been taken overboard. I'm just saying that if the people behind the diet believe that meal timing is irrelevant, then why refer to it as IF in the first place?

Again, I'm not trying to be antagonistic, just trying to understand your side of it a little better

All good man.

We aren't saying that the GH release from fasting is going have the same effect as administering supraphysiological amounts of hGH. Rather, GH prevents protein breakdown i.e. it preserves muscle mass, it doesn't increase it. It does this by both indirect (insulin) and direct signalling to pick up the slack from reduced insulin signalling due to fasting.

The studies about acute hormone levels and body composition talk about the necessity of these hormone fluctuations in building muscle and have shown that fluctuations in anabolic hormones are not necessary for muscular hypertrophy. But that is more to do with the body's response to training as opposed to whether or not raised GH preserves muscle mass or not. Its two separate processes we are talking about and the role of GH in each of them changes accordingly. In fact I don't think anyone actually knows for sure what the role of GH released in response to training actually is.

[Riccardo]

Also I don't see how using the term "fasting" and believing meal frequency is irrelevant are mutually exclusive? Fasting just means that you haven't eaten for some period of time.

[PeterDolan]

Also I don't see how using the term "fasting" and believing meal frequency is irrelevant are mutually exclusive? Fasting just means that you haven't eaten for some period of time.

I was told by a doctor long, long ago that it had to do with blood sugar and not eating for an extended period of time. Good ol' GP's huh

Slightly off topic but surely there is a reason people find it difficult to eat first thing in the morning or in cases like Phed's, feel groggy from it? It's something that is more common than people realise

[Riccardo]

Are you referring to fasting glucose levels? They are used to diagnose diabetes or pre-diabetes condition where fasting glucose levels are elevated.

I'm not sure about feeling sick at breakfast but I've always been like that and I know heaps of people who have the same issues. I feel sick most mornings and can't stomach the thought of eating. I feel fine come lunch time. If I eat breakfast I'm tired and non-productive the whole day.

[Phedder]

Slightly off topic but surely there is a reason people find it difficult to eat first thing in the morning or in cases like Phed's, feel groggy from it? It's something that is more common than people realise

From what I've read, it's due to higher levels of cortisol in the morning leading to a greater insulin response for a given amount of food. The greater insulin response drops blood glucose further and faster than it would with that same meal later in the day when cortisol levels are lower. The low blood glucose is what I believe would cause the lethargy and groggyness I get. In saying that when I ate breakfast I definitely noticed a difference between say oats in a protein shake, and bacon and eggs. Obviously there's a much lesser insulin response from the bacon and eggs, so I wouldn't get as tired. If I ever went back to a more conventional feeding schedule, I'd definitely avoid carbs in the morning for that reason.

Martin did quite a lengthy write up on the subject and the relationship between cortisol and insulin, it's aimed more towards why people often get hungry again soon after breakfast, but from my understanding can be related to the tiredness as well - http://www.leangains.com/2012/06/why-do ... ungry.html

Worthwhile read if you've got the time, some of it will just seem like revision but it puts it all together quite nicely.

[AZIDE]

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[jimmybro1]

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[trainlikeafreak]

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:pfft:

[Riccardo]

^You have to be the new Gymrat.

This is the guy that runs the leangains blog. In pretty good shape if you ask me.

At the end of the day the best eating/meal plan is the one that allows you to get all your food in, feel the most satisfied, continue to work hard in the gym and allows you to stick to it for the long term. Simple really.

[Phedder]

At the end of the day the best eating/meal plan is the one that allows you to get all your food in, feel the most satisfied, continue to work hard in the gym and allows you to stick to it for the long term. Simple really.

Very simple, yet so many people seem to overlook or forget it entirely. Judging by some of the replies in this thread, you'd think fasting somehow offends some people and has a negative impact on them personally :roll:

Ultimately, it works well for those who stick to it, so why bitch and moan about it? No one's forcing it upon people, it's simply one of many options on how to structure a diet/eating plan. Don't like it, don't do it.

[tomsammce]

At the end of the day the best eating/meal plan is the one that allows you to get all your food in, feel the most satisfied, continue to work hard in the gym and allows you to stick to it for the long term. Simple really.

Very simple, yet so many people seem to overlook or forget it entirely. Judging by some of the replies in this thread, you'd think fasting somehow offends some people and has a negative impact on them personally :roll:

Ultimately, it works well for those who stick to it, so why bitch and moan about it? No one's forcing it upon people, it's simply one of many options on how to structure a diet/eating plan. Don't like it, don't do it.

f*ck you talk shit c*nt!

Not eating for 24 hours, if that's ur secret to loosing chubb then posting progress pics With a little bit of fatloss then good for you. It might be a surprise to you but a few ppl on here might actually wanna excel in the gym not be the same for 3 years or how ever long u been on here like you.. Oh yep suspension time wow, I don't care. Uv talked shit ever since u told pol to drink olive oil... Ur nothing more than an snoopy whose been to Uni.

[flexraid]

At the end of the day the best eating/meal plan is the one that allows you to get all your food in, feel the most satisfied, continue to work hard in the gym and allows you to stick to it for the long term. Simple really.

Very simple, yet so many people seem to overlook or forget it entirely. Judging by some of the replies in this thread, you'd think fasting somehow offends some people and has a negative impact on them personally :roll:

Ultimately, it works well for those who stick to it, so why bitch and moan about it? No one's forcing it upon people, it's simply one of many options on how to structure a diet/eating plan. Don't like it, don't do it.

repped

[Bruce L]

I dont get why people cant eat meat in the mornings.

Oats is for old people with no teeth.

Its all about eggs, meat and an apple in the morn.