5/3/1 Reps

[Dr Squat]

I have a feeling this may have been covered before.

5/3/1 and reps. Those who are familiar with the philosophy will be aware that the generally accepted principle is that you do as many reps as possible. Most find that this leads to reps well above 5,3 and 1. I have seen sets close to 20. Obviously this reduces as the weight increases after a few cycles.

The question I have is how close to the limit should you push it. Should you go to failure and max reps or hold the reps to say 10, 8 and 5? Obviously this is contrary to the pure system.

Personally I think that saving a rep or two is a good thing as it build confidence. The downside is a drop in intensity.

Thoughts?

[Monarchking]

Im no pro and weak as shit but I have been doing 5/3/1 this year and its kick arse

As far as reps? For me personally it was to failure in the first few cycles but as it is getting a lot heavier for me through the year I may stay 1-2 short of failure on squats and dead lifts because I don't want sloppy reps risking injury.

Also it can depend on the day on how you feel. Niggles etc.

But imo its progression over time that I am worried about so if i cut a set of squats early because of a niggle I'm not to concerned.

That's just my experience this year anyway

[Dr Squat]

^^^ Top post bro. Makes a lot of sense.

[Phedder]

Been a while since I've used 5/3/1, but similar to MK I think my first 2-3 cycles I went to near failure, trying not to fail but knowing when I didn't have another in the tank. As the weight progressed I began alternating weeks, Say on a 5s week I'd hit 8-10 with maybe 1 left in the tank, on the 3s week I'd hit 3 reps and stop. When I stopped well short I'd often put a little more effort into the accessory work, adding 5kg or another few reps etc.

Also it can depend on the day on how you feel. Niggles etc.

But imo its progression over time that I am worried about so if i cut a set of squats early because of a niggle I'm not to concerned.

A very important point that should be considered for every program, not just 5/3/1. Longevity is key :nod: If you feel shit, hit the prescribed reps, or even cut it short of you have to. When you feel great, bang out more reps for some solid PBs. Trying to do AMRAP every session and hitting PBs every session just isn't sustainable, IMO.

Good topic Doc

[Dr Squat]

Nice post Phedder.

Related to this how I approach max effort. The pure Westside approach is to max out each week. That is, you do as much weight as you can on a particular movement on that day. Louie talks about not being scared to fail each week.

I have adapted this approach to suit me. I tend to take a 2-4 week view and look to break a record on the last week. So I leave something in the tank and build momentum until the final week when I will look to break new ground. For example:

Let's say the max effort movement is box squats and your PB is 250kg

Week 1- 230 kg easy. Haven't done movement for awhile so good to have any easy lead in.

Week 2- 250 kg. Felt good and more in the tank. Decided to stop there and hit a PB next week.

Week 3- 255 kg. Felt confident and smashed it. Confident of 260 kg next week.

Week 4- 260 kg. Was tough but got it. Nothing left so time for a new movement next week.

So a 4 week outlook has led to a 10 kg PB. That's real and tangible progress. Along the lines of what MK talked about above.

[Wyldfyre]

Regarding the Westside method doc, I was reading this thread the other day, have you seen it? Was written by Mike Hedlesky (the OP), who is often just behind Mike Tuchscherer at raw nationals so I think he has some credibility.

http://tnation.t-nation.com/free_online ... hod_thread

[Monarchking]

Pretty sure in his book he says you don't have to go to failure. (don't quote me, the e-books on my other PC) But I do remember this video

"This is an example of a day where you just get the required reps on 5/3/1 and move on - bar speed was fine but wasn't feeling great."

I also read "Many lifters will get stronger when they dial back the last set. You don't always have to push to failure to make gains – this is a belief held by novices and those with limited knowledge."

^^ refering to his 3 month boring but big challenge

[Monarchking]

Pretty sure in his book he says you don't have to go to failure. (don't quote me, the e-books on my other PC) But I do remember this video

"This is an example of a day where you just get the required reps on 5/3/1 and move on - bar speed was fine but wasn't feeling great."

I also read "Many lifters will get stronger when they dial back the last set. You don't always have to push to failure to make gains – this is a belief held by novices and those with limited knowledge."

^^ refering to his 3 month boring but big challenge

[Dr Squat]

Regarding the Westside method doc, I was reading this thread the other day, have you seen it? Was written by Mike Hedlesky (the OP), who is often just behind Mike Tuchscherer at raw nationals so I think he has some credibility.

http://tnation.t-nation.com/free_online ... hod_thread

This is awesome.

[BeastBuilder]

Having had great success with a 5/3/1 style programme I love it as a system. Being able to see where you're numbers are going to be in 6 months time is a pretty big confidence boost and makes you want to put in the work.

I think it just gives a structure to the madness, I know it's not the pioneer system of using percentages to train with, lifters have been doing that for years, but for me it's the first one I found and it kick started my powerlifting career.

For the first few cycles I went completely to failure on every training, this worked to begin with, I loved being able to try and hit the same reps next cycle but with more weight. Always challenging yourself is the key and 5/3/1 gives you a structured way to progress and also options if your having a bad day or even if you're having a good day.

As I progressed I started to see more benefit in training just shy of failure, leaving a couple reps in the tank, you don't have to train to failure to get strong, I mean I was still doing some big numbers with biggish weights (eg 210x10 on Deads etc, planning on doing 220x10 this cycle though but shhh :wink: ).

I have found this especially relevant recently as I'm coming back into training high volume with the boys and having not had the most successful build up for Nationals needed something to build up the confidence. Started it this week and it's been awesome, been just stopping at 10 reps on my top sets, one to get used to the reps again so I don't burn out and two to make it an easy 10 and build confidence for the next week.

So I think there is value in both at different stages, although I think as you get stronger you have to be smarter and pull back when you need to as it is a lot easier to overtrain and burn out when you're benching 160kg than when you're benching 100kg.