Squat stance wide with point out toes

[blahman]

I have been uncomfortable hitting depth on my squats for some time know. But have now adapted my technique to open my stance alot more and point toes out to allow room for the hips to sink to the ground. My Question is this? What are the implications in squating this way? My aductors and hamstrings seems to be working overtime rather than hitting the quads hard like before with narrow straight pointing toes. I have also been working hard on flexibility to allow more range of motion on the drop and loosening the hamstrings a little.

I would be interested in others thoughts.

[Phedder]

How wide and how pointed are we talking here? How far outside shoulder width, and what sort of angle would your toes be at?

Essentially the wider your stance and more pointed your toes the more the posterior chain takes over instead of the quads. Simply look at the lower bodies of an olympic lifter versus a wide stance powerlifter.

[blahman]

about 3 inches either side and toes at 45 degrees. To me it is getting comfortable in this position however there seems to be increase work going on the rear of the legs as opposed to normal. Might progress for another 8 weeks and see what the weight ends up at.

[Dr Squat]

It really depends on what you are trying to achieve. If you want to lift lots of weight and build your posterior chain (glutes, hams, lower back, hips) then squat like a powerlifter with the bar lower on your back with a wider stance. High bar squats with a narrower stance will hit your quads more. Although deep high bar squats will also give you good overall leg development. Nothing wrong with doing both. :nod:

[Riccardo]

Doc what do you think of the saying High bar squats for developing strength and low bar for displaying it?

It seems to me that your average oly lifter squats way more than your average power lifter and that its only when you get to the elite level of powerlifting that they begin to out-squat the oly guys.

[Dr Squat]

Doc what do you think of the saying High bar squats for developing strength and low bar for displaying it?

It seems to me that your average oly lifter squats way more than your average power lifter and that its only when you get to the elite level of powerlifting that they begin to out-squat the oly guys.

Interesting topic. Both are quite different. Powerlifters tend to have less quad development and more glute, ham and lower back development. The nature of the olympic lifts leads to quad development. This has a lot to do with the depth of the movements IMO.

I'm not so sure that your average oly lifter squats way more than your average powerlifter. Powerlifters should move more weight because the power squat is a more efficient movement with the bar further down the back.

I advocate both movements for my troops. High bar squats are an excellent way for powerlfiters to work on weak points. I know my own squat has improved a lot since I began training quads separately.

I'm interested in your views.

[BeastBuilder]

Doc what do you think of the saying High bar squats for developing strength and low bar for displaying it?

It seems to me that your average oly lifter squats way more than your average power lifter and that its only when you get to the elite level of powerlifting that they begin to out-squat the oly guys.

Yea I just gotta ask where you got this crazy idea from ?

Thinking of a real world example, Eastside, we have Olympic Lifters and Powerlifters lifting basically right beside each other and basically all the Powerlifters out squat the Olympic Lifters. And I mean we're pretty good (Not :pfft: ) but not at that elite level yet..

[Riccardo]

The saying comes from Fred Hatfield aka Dr. Squat. I think he did a 1000lb+ squat at 44 years old.

Alright, way more is a complete over exaggeration but the observation over oly vs power lifters is just a general one that I've noticed. I've been training at a weightlifting gym recently and noticed that the majority of oly lifters there squat the same numbers, deeper, with no wraps/squat suits/belts and at a lighter body weight than the lifts I've seen at powerlifting comps I've competed at and watched.

Here is something Glenn Pendlay said about Dr. Squat's opinion:

Glenn Pendlay, when talking about Fred Hatfield's position on HB vs. LB squats, summed up Hatfield's position as - "In a rough quote of his words, HB squats build strength, LB squats demonstrate it." (Sorry I can't find a direct source for Hatfield's remarks.)

When comparing the deadlift, LB squat and HB squat, in that order, one can see a progression of greater closing of the angles of the hips and the knees at the bottom of the lifts. The more closed the angle, the more strength required to open that angle (one should be able to deadlift more weight than squat for that very reason). So, in a deadlift, LB squat and HB squat, all at the same weight, one is using more strength to lift that weight in the HB squat than the other two lifts.

It occurred to me that the more bent over back position of the LB squat might be argued as requiring more strength to overcome than the more upright position of the back in the HB squat, but of that, Pendlay says - "My observations at the time were that the longer lever arm created by putting the bar higher on the back was overriding the decreased angle of the back, and making it even harder for my lumbar muscles to maintan a tight back and for my hip extensors to extend the hip. I am not trying to say that HB squats work the posterior chain more than LB squats, I do not personally believe this, I am just making the point that the differences are not as clear cut as some are making them." Even if this is not true, the deadlift will place the back at an even more bent over angle than the LB squat and will most certainly hit the posterior chain. (I suppose that would mean there is less overlapping of the deadlift with the HB squat than with the LB squat.) Of course one can do both, as well as front squats and overhead squats (and even Romanian squats), but if this notion correct, one should make the HB squat the priority if increasing strength is the goal. Am I on to something here, or should I go smoke some more crack?

[HarryB]

The saying comes from Fred Hatfield aka Dr. Squat. I think he did a 1000lb+ squat at 44 years old.

Alright, way more is a complete over exaggeration but the observation over oly vs power lifters is just a general one that I've noticed. I've been training at a weightlifting gym recently and noticed that the majority of oly lifters there squat the same numbers, deeper, with no wraps/squat suits/belts and at a lighter body weight than the lifts I've seen at powerlifting comps I've competed at and watched.

Here is something Glenn Pendlay said about Dr. Squat's opinion:

Glenn Pendlay, when talking about Fred Hatfield's position on HB vs. LB squats, summed up Hatfield's position as - "In a rough quote of his words, HB squats build strength, LB squats demonstrate it." (Sorry I can't find a direct source for Hatfield's remarks.)

When comparing the deadlift, LB squat and HB squat, in that order, one can see a progression of greater closing of the angles of the hips and the knees at the bottom of the lifts. The more closed the angle, the more strength required to open that angle (one should be able to deadlift more weight than squat for that very reason). So, in a deadlift, LB squat and HB squat, all at the same weight, one is using more strength to lift that weight in the HB squat than the other two lifts.

It occurred to me that the more bent over back position of the LB squat might be argued as requiring more strength to overcome than the more upright position of the back in the HB squat, but of that, Pendlay says - "My observations at the time were that the longer lever arm created by putting the bar higher on the back was overriding the decreased angle of the back, and making it even harder for my lumbar muscles to maintan a tight back and for my hip extensors to extend the hip. I am not trying to say that HB squats work the posterior chain more than LB squats, I do not personally believe this, I am just making the point that the differences are not as clear cut as some are making them." Even if this is not true, the deadlift will place the back at an even more bent over angle than the LB squat and will most certainly hit the posterior chain. (I suppose that would mean there is less overlapping of the deadlift with the HB squat than with the LB squat.) Of course one can do both, as well as front squats and overhead squats (and even Romanian squats), but if this notion correct, one should make the HB squat the priority if increasing strength is the goal. Am I on to something here, or should I go smoke some more crack?

INteresting

[drizzt]

Matt Perryman aka ThePman did a great blog post a while back on this very topic.

Read it here.

[Dr Squat]

High bar squats are a great movement. I personally think too much is made of how they hit quads. Deep high bar squats with a relatively upright position and stance sightly wider than shoulder width give great overall leg development- including quads The key is the depth. You need to go below parallel. The biggest problem I see (myself included) is the tendency to cut them high as the weight get heavier. Counterproductive.

[Big john]

High bar squats are a great movement. I personally think too much is made of how they hit quads. Deep high bar squats with a relatively upright position and stance sightly wider than shoulder width give great overall leg development- including quads The key is the depth. You need to go below parallel. The biggest problem I see (myself included) is the tendency to cut them high as the weight get heavier. Counterproductive.

ive always found if i try and bring the stance in somewhat narrower my knees travel past my toes even when im trying to pushout with the knees. is more so do with my longer leverages?

[Dr Squat]

High bar squats are a great movement. I personally think too much is made of how they hit quads. Deep high bar squats with a relatively upright position and stance sightly wider than shoulder width give great overall leg development- including quads The key is the depth. You need to go below parallel. The biggest problem I see (myself included) is the tendency to cut them high as the weight get heavier. Counterproductive.

ive always found if i try and bring the stance in somewhat narrower my knees travel past my toes even when im trying to pushout with the knees. is more so do with my longer leverages?

Bro there will be other better qualified than me to give you the reason why this happens. They will possibly say weak hamstrings and prescribe leg curls to fix this. I would switch off at this point and reach for the remote.

I would say that you just need to practice the movement lots. I tell my guys that you need to do thousands of reps at something to get good at it. And that's once you have developed the correct technique.

Obviously you are at big disadvantage given your height. But I have seen tall guys go from not being able to squat the bar to being able to do 140 kg for 5 reps in the space of a few months. The key is mastering the technique. This probably means going backwards to go forwards.

What I like about 5x5 is that Mehdi encourages lifters to start from the bar and add weight progressively each week. This approach along with lots of sets leads to good technique. Rather than approach of loading up the bar and each week and going nowhere.

I really believe in high bar squats for powerlifters. If they are something you want include then think about this approach. Even if you treat them as a warm up.

[Dr Squat]

Matt Perryman aka ThePman did a great blog post a while back on this very topic.

Read it here.

This article deserves to be read. :nod:

Out of interest where is Matt these days? I take it he got pissed off with fuckwits on this forum and decided to keep his knowledge to himself?

[Big john]

High bar squats are a great movement. I personally think too much is made of how they hit quads. Deep high bar squats with a relatively upright position and stance sightly wider than shoulder width give great overall leg development- including quads The key is the depth. You need to go below parallel. The biggest problem I see (myself included) is the tendency to cut them high as the weight get heavier. Counterproductive.

ive always found if i try and bring the stance in somewhat narrower my knees travel past my toes even when im trying to pushout with the knees. is more so do with my longer leverages?

Bro there will be other better qualified than me to give you the reason why this happens. They will possibly say weak hamstrings and prescribe leg curls to fix this. I would switch off at this point and reach for the remote.

I would say that you just need to practice the movement lots. I tell my guys that you need to do thousands of reps at something to get good at it. And that's once you have developed the correct technique.

Obviously you are at big disadvantage given your height. But I have seen tall guys go from not being able to squat the bar to being able to do 140 kg for 5 reps in the space of a few months. The key is mastering the technique. This probably means going backwards to go forwards.

What I like about 5x5 is that Mehdi encourages lifters to start from the bar and add weight progressively each week. This approach along with lots of sets leads to good technique. Rather than approach of loading up the bar and each week and going nowhere.

I really believe in high bar squats for powerlifters. If they are something you want include then think about this approach. Even if you treat them as a warm up.

repped...dif some food for thought :nod:

[Wyldfyre]

Matt Perryman aka ThePman did a great blog post a while back on this very topic.

Read it here.

This article deserves to be read. :nod:

Out of interest where is Matt these days? I take it he got pissed off with fuckwits on this forum and decided to keep his knowledge to himself?

I recall Konstantinovs saying in an interview that he squats mainly high bar in training as he found that variety was better for his deadlift.

[Big john]

Matt Perryman aka ThePman did a great blog post a while back on this very topic.

Read it here.

This article deserves to be read. :nod:

Out of interest where is Matt these days? I take it he got pissed off with fuckwits on this forum and decided to keep his knowledge to himself?

I recall Konstantinovs saying in an interview that he squats mainly high bar in training as he found that variety was better for his deadlift.

i dont suppose you have a link to that do you?

[Wyldfyre]

It was in some Power magazine interview which I can't find online. It isn't mentioned explicitly in this interview, but there's a bit of background about his training. http://www.lift-run-bang.com/2010/04/in ... inovs.html

[Dr Squat]

It was in some Power magazine interview which I can't find online. It isn't mentioned explicitly in this interview, but there's a bit of background about his training. http://www.lift-run-bang.com/2010/04/in ... inovs.html

Keep these links coming young fella. You are proving to be quite useful. A 250 kg deadlift at 71 kg, intellectual and quick witted. Still, lots more to learn aye bro?

[Wyldfyre]

It was in some Power magazine interview which I can't find online. It isn't mentioned explicitly in this interview, but there's a bit of background about his training. http://www.lift-run-bang.com/2010/04/in ... inovs.html

Keep these links coming young fella. You are proving to be quite useful. A 250 kg deadlift at 71 kg, intellectual and quick witted. Still, lots more to learn aye bro?

Good to see I'm providing some lols. However, I need to grow a chest first!

Edit: bodyweight doesn't matter, there's no weight classes bro.

[BeastBuilder]

However, I need to grow a chest first!

bodyweight doesn't matter, there's no weight classes bro.

Brb, screenshotting for future reference during the weekend banter :pfft: