High Rep Training

[Riccardo]

I assume you're meaning with the same weight on the bar? So not only TUT, but also the total tension is the same.

Nope, the whole point is you can go heavier with 3 rep sets thus cause more myotrauma and that this makes up for the reduced hypertrophy that would be stimulated from vascular occlusion.

You should get juiced to the gills and find out firsthand that it's not the magic bullet you thought, or everyone would be a monster. I comment on this cos I find it kind of annoying that the whole he's gassed and I'm not is like your mantra for why things work when there isn't a paper to support it.

Not saying this at all, I know It's not a magic bullet, I train many guys who are on and the approach changes accordingly. Simple fact is there are some huge differences between guys on gear and natty guys, its undeniable.

And well you have always said every argument needs real science not anecdotal evidence. This one is ok apparently cos ummmmm it suits you to use anecdotal evidence. Make up your mind and please... please stop using the idea that big guys take loads of gear as a line of argument for things they do not being applicable to general trainers.

When did I ever say something NEEDS scientific evidence? Hell, all scientific evidence comes from some sort of unproven theory or anecdotal evidence or observation. Its just that scientific evidence from well designed studies carries greater weighting than what some bro says in the gym.

I'm sorry that you guys can't seem to stand the idea that someone might do things differently or that someone says hang on, something like eating 6 small meals a day or training in a 10-12 rep range is unnecessary or maybe not applicable for those guys who are natty. And lets face it this guy is most likely a natty beginner if he's asking about rep ranges.

[Android]

Just playing Ricarrdo, Harry.

But I do believe 3 sets of 10 and 10 sets of 3 produces different results...I have no proof other than we can tell a powerlifter or oly lifter from a bodybuilder. Generally speaking but of course you can pick out some odd-balls who look different but everyone I know expects a competant powerlifter to look like X, and a seasoned bodybuilder to look like Y.

Whether juiced or not they are different. Meal timings are different as I am sure bodybuilders eat more often but meal timings don't affect composition...

[shane]

I have trained for a few years and done the heavy weights was just wanting feedback on what everyone thought about high rep training as I hadn't done it before. As for the terminology about training I haven't learnt much if anything at all due to having programs written for me

[Riccardo]

Well i'm confused which isn't hard for me :grin: Where do I get this information about hypertrophy etc. You sound like you know what your talking about Riccardo by the response from the others on this forum :clap:

A lot of time reading and a lot of time in the gym seeing what works and what doesn't. Also, for me, about 6 years of study at uni lol. Taking advice from guys who have put in the work in the trenches is a good starting point but you should continue to read and listen to your own body. Question what way is the best way to do things and adapt your approach to the stuff you learn.

Strength and bodybuilding blogs and sites like this are good places for a shit tonne of info. Some bodybuilding sites are also quite good, muscular development is actually pretty good (some of their articles).

[HarryB]

Well i'm confused which isn't hard for me :grin: Where do I get this information about hypertrophy etc. You sound like you know what your talking about Riccardo by the response from the others on this forum :clap:

A lot of time reading and a lot of time in the gym seeing what works and what doesn't. Also, for me, about 6 years of study at uni lol. Taking advice from guys who have put in the work in the trenches is a good starting point but you should continue to read and listen to your own body. Question what way is the best way to do things and adapt your approach to the stuff you learn.

Strength and bodybuilding blogs and sites like this are good places for a shit tonne of info. Some bodybuilding sites are also quite good, muscular development is actually pretty good.

What you do when you say things about drugs and bodybuilders is invalidate the work they do to achieve things. Be like me looking at you and going... "what does he even know, he's tiny!"

[shane]

Cheers Riccardo for that, have a Arnold book I can read plus study the net as well

[Riccardo]

Well i'm confused which isn't hard for me :grin: Where do I get this information about hypertrophy etc. You sound like you know what your talking about Riccardo by the response from the others on this forum :clap:

A lot of time reading and a lot of time in the gym seeing what works and what doesn't. Also, for me, about 6 years of study at uni lol. Taking advice from guys who have put in the work in the trenches is a good starting point but you should continue to read and listen to your own body. Question what way is the best way to do things and adapt your approach to the stuff you learn.

Strength and bodybuilding blogs and sites like this are good places for a shit tonne of info. Some bodybuilding sites are also quite good, muscular development is actually pretty good.

What you do when you say things about drugs and bodybuilders is invalidate the work they do to achieve things. Be like me looking at you and going... "what does he even know, he's tiny!"

Tiny, lol okay bro :roll: . keep your jimmies unrustled. Im not invalidating anything, just saying the approach should be different.

[trainlikeafreak]

harry get a grip your doing it all wrong. i dont care if your 110 odd kilo at the moment shredded u obv take a lot of gear cause thats the only way. your just stuck in the 80's..hahaha oh brother! :roll:

[trainlikeafreak]

.

[Riccardo]

harry get a grip your doing it all wrong. i dont care if your 110 odd kilo at the moment shredded u obv take a lot of gear cause thats the only way. your just stuck in the 80's..hahaha oh brother! :roll:

Try and keep up, no one said he was doing it wrong.

Re: your 2nd comment, what are you talking about? You need to work on them reading comprehension skills. I'm being 100% srs, did you even read the thread before you commented?

[Dinahlady]

So much Broscience ITT

Sometimes this forum is really embarrassing.

Riccardo - if what you were saying was true or backed by science then you wouldn't have to write reems and reems of text to try and justify yourself and/or change your story multiple times along the way (at first 10 x 3 is the same as 3 x 10, then after that its only in relation to having both in some "superior" training program that obviously everyone who is big ever is using unless they are on gear in which case it doesn't make a difference)

At the end of the day just go eat something and lift some decent weight and you might actually see some decent results and learn a bit more practical application instead of writing loads of crap on the internet?

P.s Android - are your comments srsly NOT trolling? Mind blown...

[trainlikeafreak]

harry get a grip your doing it all wrong. i dont care if your 110 odd kilo at the moment shredded u obv take a lot of gear cause thats the only way. your just stuck in the 80's..hahaha oh brother! :roll:

Try and keep up, no one said he was doing it wrong.

Re: your 2nd comment, what are you talking about? You need to work on them reading comprehension skills. I'm being 100% srs, did you even read the thread before you commented?

couldn't be f'd reading 2 million words of overcomplicated bs. same old stuff.

[Riccardo]

So much Broscience ITT

Sometimes this forum is really embarrassing.

Riccardo - if what you were saying was true or backed by science then you wouldn't have to write reems and reems of text to try and justify yourself and/or change your story multiple times along the way (at first 10 x 3 is the same as 3 x 10, then after that its only in relation to having both in some "superior" training program that obviously everyone who is big ever is using unless they are on gear in which case it doesn't make a difference)

At the end of the day just go eat something and lift some decent weight and you might actually see some decent results and learn a bit more practical application instead of writing loads of crap on the internet?

P.s Android - are your comments srsly NOT trolling? Mind blown...

Are you trolling or are you just dense? I never said it was some superior training program. I said in a well designed program you would have both, its my very first post, go check it out and it's true as well. If you wanna look at practical application watch any pro train and they will do some low rep stuff and some high rep stuff. I haven't changed my story at all and the "reems and reems of txt" are to explain the reasoning behind a theory. Otherwise we could all come up with ridiculous ideas without ever having to prove them. When challenged about the veracity of a claim its what you do. If that person doesn't agree with your thinking then all good.

[Dinahlady]

Writing loads of complicated BS isn't the same as proving something, in-fact it suggests quite the opposite...

[Riccardo]

Writing loads of complicated BS isn't the same as proving something, in-fact it suggests quite the opposite...

Just because you don't understand it doesn't mean its bullshit and no it doesn't, its what you do when there is no explicit evidence. How do you think any discovery by anyone in the history of the universe ever discovered anything? Its because they had a theory that at first couldn't be proven yet they came to that conclusion through some sort of reasoning.

Not saying im discovering anything but obviously you need clarification.

[Dinahlady]

[MOD EDIT: No memes, please.]

but srsly

Theres an Einstein quote: "If you can't explain it simply, then you don't understand it well enough"

You mad?

[FellowshipOfTheRon]

@Ron, yeah pretty much, sorry if I'm not being clear I'm trying to post in short breaks from work but I don't think Work is really the important factor, time under tension is but I guess what I'm saying is time under tension across an entire workout is more important than time under tension during each set so maybe think of it as 10 sets of 9 seconds TUT is the same as 3 sets of 30 seconds TUT. (depending on fiber type).

Just playing Ricarrdo, Harry.

But I do believe 3 sets of 10 and 10 sets of 3 produces different results...I have no proof other than we can tell a powerlifter or oly lifter from a bodybuilder. Generally speaking but of course you can pick out some odd-balls who look different but everyone I know expects a competant powerlifter to look like X, and a seasoned bodybuilder to look like Y.

Whether juiced or not they are different. Meal timings are different as I am sure bodybuilders eat more often but meal timings don't affect composition...

Yeah I'm too inexperienced to really get in to this argument over which would produce better results but Riccardo I was wondering, what if you put your theory into perspective of a proper workout schedule in the long term?

I see what you're saying and I can see how it would make sense theoretically (or at least I think.. still slightly confused) but in a real life situation would it still hold water?

Lets say for someone who goes in to the gym, trains 4 days a week every week for ages. If he's doing the usual 3sets of 10 reppers for most of his workout and in an alternate universe the same indivudal (not in a galaxy far far away) is pushing all his workouts with 10 sets of 3 reppers with heaps heavier weights.... wouldn't the high volume low rep heavy weights workout in fact keep him from going in and smashing it consistently because of the impacts on his CNS? What's your opinion in the difference in recovery between these two training styles and consequentially, the potential for difference in expected gains?

I know you also mentioned that both styles should be a part of someone's training regiment rather than just one over the other so not trying to twist your words but if we are to say both have the same end result then one must question why switch between them if there is no difference and why wouldn't there be a difference if you also feel so different after each of the workouts.

Well i'm confused which isn't hard for me :grin: Where do I get this information about hypertrophy etc. You sound like you know what your talking about Riccardo by the response from the others on this forum :clap:

A lot of time reading and a lot of time in the gym seeing what works and what doesn't. Also, for me, about 6 years of study at uni lol. Taking advice from guys who have put in the work in the trenches is a good starting point but you should continue to read and listen to your own body. Question what way is the best way to do things and adapt your approach to the stuff you learn.

Strength and bodybuilding blogs and sites like this are good places for a shit tonne of info. Some bodybuilding sites are also quite good, muscular development is actually pretty good.

What you do when you say things about drugs and bodybuilders is invalidate the work they do to achieve things. Be like me looking at you and going... "what does he even know, he's tiny!"

I agree it's not fair to say it's easier for enhanced trainers but I didn't see that implication in this thread, sounds more like a caution against the words of the average cycling gymbros who give lots of shit advice (surely you've heard them in a gym near you!).

Bodybuilders who are the real deal always have good stuff to share but I still find it interesting that there could well be a difference between what works to stimulate growth for enhanced vs natty builders.

For a start, workout schedule options would be a big difference right? Or maybe at least for IFBB pros.. sometimes MD features workout programs of Ronnie/Cutler etc. Ronnies ones always shocking ; things like crazy shoulder workout then bench the next day.... epic lower back training then legs the next day. Surely being enhanced does mean that they can train differently and stay anabolic - in same situation could a natty manage? Again to clarify, not saying it's easier.. if anything they have to work harder but we must acknowledge at some points there is a significant difference in how you'd train as a natty vs enhanced for best results!

[Riccardo]

but srsly

Theres an Einstein quote: "If you can't explain it simply, then you don't understand it well enough"

You mad?

I understand it perfectly well not my fault if you can't.

[Riccardo]

Yeah I'm too inexperienced to really get in to this argument over which would produce better results but Riccardo I was wondering, what if you put your theory into perspective of a proper workout schedule in the long term?

I see what you're saying and I can see how it would make sense theoretically (or at least I think.. still slightly confused) but in a real life situation would it still hold water?

Lets say for someone who goes in to the gym, trains 4 days a week every week for ages. If he's doing the usual 3sets of 10 reppers for most of his workout and in an alternate universe the same indivudal (not in a galaxy far far away) is pushing all his workouts with 10 sets of 3 reppers with heaps heavier weights.... wouldn't the high volume low rep heavy weights workout in fact keep him from going in and smashing it consistently because of the impacts on his CNS? What's your opinion in the difference in recovery between these two training styles and consequentially, the potential for difference in expected gains?

I know you also mentioned that both styles should be a part of someone's training regiment rather than just one over the other so not trying to twist your words but if we are to say both have the same end result then one must question why switch between them if there is no difference and why wouldn't there be a difference if you also feel so different after each of the workouts.

Precisely what I've said since the beginning. There is no way you could obviously train like that for ever without burning out, this is why in a good program your intensity should increase over the course of the cycle. You need to progressively overload your muscles to elicit an adaptation. You can't just do the same thing each week and expect to gain mass/strength. Chaotic switching between exercises to try and trick your muscles into new growth only works so well.

I agree it's not fair to say it's easier for enhanced trainers but I didn't see that implication in this thread, sounds more like a caution against the words of the average cycling gymbros who give lots of shit advice (surely you've heard them in a gym near you!).

Thats because there wasn't one. I never said enhanced bbers have it easier or what enhanced bbers do is completely irrelevant to a natty person. I think this has arisen from the IF/meal timing thread where I said eating for enhanced guys is different than it is for natty guys. I actually implied that eating was probably harder for enhanced guys so where this accusation that I am saying they have it easier comes from I don't know.

Bodybuilders who are the real deal always have good stuff to share but I still find it interesting that there could well be a difference between what works to stimulate growth for enhanced vs natty builders.

Yip, there is a big difference between natty and enhanced guys and the way they should go about training and nutrition. Again I'm not saying enhanced guys can just look at weights and grow bigger or eat easier or whatever. I'm just saying they are different and therefore the approach should be slightly different. I feel like I should put this disclaimer in every post I make incase someone gets butthurt and starts accusing me of ragging on enhanced guys.

For a start, workout schedule options would be a big difference right? Or maybe at least for IFBB pros.. sometimes MD features workout programs of Ronnie/Cutler etc. Ronnies ones always shocking ; things like crazy shoulder workout then bench the next day.... epic lower back training then legs the next day. Surely being enhanced does mean that they can train differently and stay anabolic - in same situation could a natty manage? Again to clarify, not saying it's easier.. if anything they have to work harder but we must acknowledge at some points there is a significant difference in how you'd train as a natty vs enhanced for best results!

Yeah that's the exact kind of thing I'm talking about. Natty guys can still take huge amounts of volume and intensity i.e. look at some of the guys logs on here where they have done smolov cycles. Thing is you can obviously take more punishment as an enhanced athlete due to better recovery.

[Android]

P.s Android - are your comments srsly NOT trolling? Mind blown...

Sorry :oops:

I wasn't going to post in this thread at all and just let the Pros handle it.

Guess I just got out of my league, brb going to try and lose some hypertrophy.

[student]

thought id just add my 2c in. imo 3x10 is alot different to 10x3. obviously they will produce different results when it comes to performance, so it makes sense that the two will produce different looks too. but yeah, i agree that a well balanced training program should include high and low reps.

[tomsammce]

I agree with Riccardo and share most of the same opinions/logic as what he is saying.

no memes either people. thx

[crazyfacials]

Yeah keep the memes and name calling down guys, I don't want to hand out a few yellow cards and then clean this up and send it to the playground, so far every time we have a mods only meeting we enjoy bringing up this thread (until Nate the Hate's rage meter maxes up and he throws atlas stones at people)

[shane]

Thanks for the advice Riccardo have been looking on the net and getting a better understanding of some of the different training techniques that are out there and what is required.

[Terrymundo]

just read this thread front to back. Not sure who said it but, finishing with hi reps(20+) help force blood in to the muscle. On my squat days I always throw in a few sets of light extentions and rep that shit till death. I feel it gives me a fuller pump and just finshes off the muscle nicely.

Seen riccardo being outed for suggesting 10X3 = 3X10 (both with challenging weights). Although his logic seems plausible but lets say i wanted I was deciding how to train squats today I would be stuck between squating 190X3X10 or 150X10X3. According to riccardo i would be indifferent between the two. I would take the 10reppers hands down simply i can get the job down faster/easier and put less stress on my joints etc. Stepping it further, cause the 10 reppers are less taxing you can go an extra set or 2 without going above the work load of the 3reppers. This means the total tension for the amount of effort is greater with 10 reppers. And if more tension equals more hypertrophy than 10reppers are the superior method.

just thinking based on my experiences. Hate away