High Rep Training

[Luigi]

Some of this thread is a bit too complex for a simple bastard like me. Maybe I'm thick but does it really need to be this complicated? High and low reps both have their place.

you got a brother in perth ?

[Dr Squat]

Some of this thread is a bit too complex for a simple bastard like me. Maybe I'm thick but does it really need to be this complicated? High and low reps both have their place.

you got a brother in perth ?

He was in Perth, now in Auckland. Why's that brah?

[Luigi]

Some of this thread is a bit too complex for a simple bastard like me. Maybe I'm thick but does it really need to be this complicated? High and low reps both have their place.

you got a brother in perth ?

He was in Perth, now in Auckland. Why's that brah?

oh some dude at my gym looks just like you, same build, always wearing powerlifting tops etc and overheard him talking about christchurch a few times.

[Dr Squat]

you got a brother in perth ?

He was in Perth, now in Auckland. Why's that brah?

oh some dude at my gym looks just like you, same build, always wearing powerlifting tops etc and overheard him talking about christchurch a few times.

Sorry bro. Tell him to shut up and lift.

[Luigi]

He was in Perth, now in Auckland. Why's that brah?

oh some dude at my gym looks just like you, same build, always wearing powerlifting tops etc and overheard him talking about christchurch a few times.

Sorry bro. Tell him to shut up and lift.

nah too scared hes pretty solid lol.

[Android]

surprising views on reps and sets based on...

but this is about high volume reps.

Have done high volume in the 100 reps range per set for Quads, and 50 rep range for Shoulders, Back, and Arms for several years at various times.

High rep sets are great!

Haven't and wouldn't use them for bulking but for pre-contest preserving muscle gains in the last few week they are superb.

Only thing is, endurance reps on a muscle can start to tighten it...that equates to smaller size so I wouldn't do it for long periods of time. Last few weeks pre-comp you can't make much more gains so you just feed your muscle blood with high rep pumps and focus more on cardio.

I can hear Mike K saying...if heavy weights got you a great physique why change it

[Riccardo]

How long before going on stage do you switch to higher reps android? Or do you just see how you feel and play by ear?

[shane]

Wow a lot of different views on this topic which is great. It's good to read what everyone prefers to do regarding their training thanks guys :clap:

[Android]

How long before going on stage do you switch to higher reps android? Or do you just see how you feel and play by ear?

it's probably by feel.

I don't use really low carbs for dropping fat (150-200gms Carbs) when I am still trying to add some muscle from 12 weeks out down to 4 weeks out. But at some stage close to the comp when it gets tougher to drop fat and I don't feel strong I find little point in taking muscle to failure. It's now all about preserving what I have.

Have done this style many weeks out from a comp before and come in tighter but smaller (measured), so for me I won't do it too far out anymore. I remember having 20" arms and going on stage with 18" arms. Then next comp a month later I did heavy until late in the piece and got close to my usual 20" again on stage. I measure alot since it's all about size :-|

Have heard from many experienced guys and trainers that high rep leg extensions bring out deeper cuts.

Don't know why but to me sounds like the late 80s when everyone believed in "spot-reducing" where if you worked your abs you'd lose fat from that area...so I don't expect deep cut Quads from high rep leg extensions but I do it for the pump in the last few weeks.

I picked this method after watching some Olympia preparations in 2008? of 3 Pros with Charles Glass (think it was Denis Wolf and 2 other guys). They were doing high rep sets in their last couple of weeks purely to feed the muscle blood and maintain the size they had built already. They weren't trying to build more muscle with heavy weights and they explained it pretty well.

One thing, you can't just go and pump out 50-100 reps. Lactic acid kills you before 20 reps if you are used to 8-12 rep range. So it takes about 2-3 weeks to work your way up to this number and it's painful :-)

[Mcmass]

[HarryB]

Both are the same in a properly designed training cycle from my own observations. Refer to my original comment. Time under tension is not in of itself the important factor you are training a particular energy system so you can still tap into different systems using lower rep ranges. Yes body builders have bigger legs but they also are on a lot more drugs. Look at the combination of weightlifters and mild drug use (Ivan stoistov). I know a few bbers train with similar methodologies.

[Riccardo]

If time under tension across the workout is the same then it is my belief that they are the same. Think about it, your muscle doesn't magically know the difference between 5 or 6 reps. Like I mentioned before you can still tax your glycolytic energy system using heavy doubles or triples. You just have to adjust the rest intervals slightly and of course your total number of sets will increase. My argument is that there is obviously a range in which hypertrophy can occur, there is no magical number. The upper limit of that range tapers off as you are unable to elicit significant tension in your muscle to induce hypertrophy however the lower limit extends right to the bottom of the rep range i.e. 1 rep. When you think about it this makes sense as what is a set but a number of singles done with a very short rest interval?

The combination of reps and sets you should use depends on fiber type. typically type II fibers have greater potential for hypertrophy and they are stimulated by higher threshold motor units. Its not like you stop stimulating the lower threshold units (comprised of mostly type I fibers). My understanding is it's a summation so they are still being told to fire. The number of reps you do per set therefore depends more so on the fiber composition of that muscle. E.g. I will do higher rep work for quads and lower reps heavy triples etc for hammstrings. I know some people will completely disagree because it flys in the face of everything they have been told. 'You must perform 3 sets of 12 reps to gain size'. But I highly recommend giving it a go as I know many guys who train this way as well as myself and people I have trained.

[shane]

So what type of training would you recommend then Riccardo??I mean regarding the rep range and number of sets?

[Riccardo]

Well like I said it should all be part of a proper program. It would differ between the muscle groups you are trying to work as well as individual variations. What works for some people just doesn't work for others due to various reasons. Although I have been arguing for the inclusion of low rep work I would generally say stick between 5-20 reps for most exercises where you should be starting off a training cycle at the upper end of that range and working towards lower reps as you progress across several weeks. As you become more advanced I would work in the low rep stuff into your program. Between 6 and 8 heavy work sets close to failure per body part.

This is an overly simplistic approach but if you wan't a proper program or something I recommend something as basic as starting strength or 5/3/1. Also look at the stuff Dorian Yates does. I can't really recommend much beyond that as I dunno what level your at.

[Mcmass]

I recommend something as basic as starting strength or 5/3/1. Also look at the stuff Dorian Yates does. I can't really recommend much beyond that as I dunno what level your at.

So other than recommending 2 lower rep range programs, what higher rep based programs would you advise?

5/3/1 is predominantly low rep, and Dorian Yates stuck around 6-8 reps for his working sets.

Sure if you do some lower rep stuff like sets of 1-6 alongside other sets of higher reps or do higher more traditional rep ranges for size like 6-12 the end result is still muscle growth/strength. You can also say well it depends on rest periods, rep speed and a few other variables.

The only real way to test your idea that 10sets x 3 is the same as 3sets x 10

is to keep all other variables the same, and add a control group. The studies I have read show overlap for sure but they are in no way the same.

[HarryB]

I recommend something as basic as starting strength or 5/3/1. Also look at the stuff Dorian Yates does. I can't really recommend much beyond that as I dunno what level your at.

So other than recommending 2 lower rep range programs, what higher rep based programs would you advise?

5/3/1 is predominantly low rep, and Dorian Yates stuck around 6-8 reps for his working sets.

Sure if you do some lower rep stuff like sets of 1-6 alongside other sets of higher reps or do higher more traditional rep ranges for size like 6-12 the end result is still muscle growth/strength. You can also say well it depends on rest periods, rep speed and a few other variables.

The only real way to test your idea that 10sets x 3 is the same as 3sets x 10

is to keep all other variables the same, and add a control group. The studies I have read show overlap for sure but they are in no way the same.

Dorian also did 12-15 on legs. But he was juiced out of his eyeballs so what he did in the gym doesn't matter apparently.

[Android]

I recommend something as basic as starting strength or 5/3/1. Also look at the stuff Dorian Yates does. I can't really recommend much beyond that as I dunno what level your at.

So other than recommending 2 lower rep range programs, what higher rep based programs would you advise?

5/3/1 is predominantly low rep, and Dorian Yates stuck around 6-8 reps for his working sets.

Sure if you do some lower rep stuff like sets of 1-6 alongside other sets of higher reps or do higher more traditional rep ranges for size like 6-12 the end result is still muscle growth/strength. You can also say well it depends on rest periods, rep speed and a few other variables.

The only real way to test your idea that 10sets x 3 is the same as 3sets x 10

is to keep all other variables the same, and add a control group. The studies I have read show overlap for sure but they are in no way the same.

Dorian also did 12-15 on legs. But he was juiced out of his eyeballs so what he did in the gym doesn't matter apparently.

You're spouting anecdotal stuff now, and he was juiced! omg :shock:

We need controlled studies done in labs on nattys and new research proof from 2010 onwards or it doesn't work, these are the new rules. If you don't like them hand your massive anecdotal frame over to the nearest PT you see in the gym and leave...just leave :naughty:

[HarryB]

So other than recommending 2 lower rep range programs, what higher rep based programs would you advise?

5/3/1 is predominantly low rep, and Dorian Yates stuck around 6-8 reps for his working sets.

Sure if you do some lower rep stuff like sets of 1-6 alongside other sets of higher reps or do higher more traditional rep ranges for size like 6-12 the end result is still muscle growth/strength. You can also say well it depends on rest periods, rep speed and a few other variables.

The only real way to test your idea that 10sets x 3 is the same as 3sets x 10

is to keep all other variables the same, and add a control group. The studies I have read show overlap for sure but they are in no way the same.

Dorian also did 12-15 on legs. But he was juiced out of his eyeballs so what he did in the gym doesn't matter apparently.

You're spouting anecdotal stuff now, and he was juiced! omg :shock:

We need controlled studies done in labs on nattys and new research proof from 2010 onwards or it doesn't work, these are the new rules. If you don't like them hand your massive anecdotal frame over to the nearest PT you see in the gym and leave...just leave :naughty:

he he he he he he actually Riccardo doesn't have studies proving this he actually just worked it out for himself.... GULP! I believe he's relying on anecdotal evidence! WTF!!!! Can this even be real?? :shock: :shock:

[FellowshipOfTheRon]

Riccardo what are you talking about, it's sounding really complicated.

Can someone 'bro' it up a bit?

Is that 10setx3rep = 3setx10rep thing something to do with total work (KWh?) done?

Can we mix the variables up a little bit like... lets say 10 sets of 3 reps preacher curls I'll do with 50kg and it happens to be 100kwh of work (pulled this number out of my ass), if I were to try convert this to a high rep low set scheme which happens to equate to same amount of end work done lets say 100reps with 2 sets with 5kg - 10sx3r(50kg)=100kwh=2sx100r(5kg) - would I expect the same results from both? Is that how we are to interpret it?

[Riccardo]

Mcmass, I can't really think of some good beginner programs, beyond the ones I suggested, ones that incorporate much high rep work. If I was to do one for him myself for sure it would have some, It would have high reps incorporated right until the end of the training cycle. you could do a study of that nature but you would have to have some relative measure of hypertrophy because as I said I reckon different fiber compositions of different muscle groups makes them more responsive to a particular rep scheme.

Lol at Harry and Android, when have I ever said anecdotal evidence is bad? I assume you two cheeky fuckers are referring to the meal timing threads where I talked with reference to a lot of literature, only because It's part of what I study and I know a lot of it pretty well. Anecdotal evidence is awesome, I only call for a little critical thinking and to look closely at where information comes from instead of 'herp derp that big guy at my gym who's juiced to the gills does it herp'.

Yeah Dorian is obviously juiced to the eye balls but his methodologies for the most part are pretty sound. Especially with regards to training. He trains with a Max OT sort of style which many natural guys have used with great success. and seems to be the choice of most pros/good amateurs claiming to be natural.

And yeah I guess you could say it is a theory of my own but it is an informed theory that is constructed from not only anecdotal evidence but fairly logical scientific reasoning. I'm not pulling some shit out my ass for the fun of it.

@Ron, yeah pretty much, sorry if I'm not being clear I'm trying to post in short breaks from work but I don't think Work is really the important factor, time under tension is but I guess what I'm saying is time under tension across an entire workout is more important than time under tension during each set so maybe think of it as 10 sets of 9 seconds TUT is the same as 3 sets of 30 seconds TUT. (depending on fiber type).

[Phedder]

I guess what I'm saying is time under tension across an entire workout is more important than time under tension during each set so maybe think of it as 10 sets of 9 seconds TUT is the same as 3 sets of 30 seconds TUT. (depending on fiber type).

I assume you're meaning with the same weight on the bar? So not only TUT, but also the total tension is the same.

[Riccardo]

I guess what I'm saying is time under tension across an entire workout is more important than time under tension during each set so maybe think of it as 10 sets of 9 seconds TUT is the same as 3 sets of 30 seconds TUT. (depending on fiber type).

I assume you're meaning with the same weight on the bar? So not only TUT, but also the total tension is the same.

Nope, the whole point is you can go heavier with 3 rep sets thus cause more myotrauma and that this makes up for the reduced hypertrophy that would be stimulated from vascular occlusion.

[HarryB]

I guess what I'm saying is time under tension across an entire workout is more important than time under tension during each set so maybe think of it as 10 sets of 9 seconds TUT is the same as 3 sets of 30 seconds TUT. (depending on fiber type).

I assume you're meaning with the same weight on the bar? So not only TUT, but also the total tension is the same.

Nope, the whole point is you can go heavier with 3 rep sets thus cause more myotrauma and that this makes up for the reduced hypertrophy that would be stimulated from vascular occlusion.

You should get juiced to the gills and find out firsthand that it's not the magic bullet you thought, or everyone would be a monster. I comment on this cos I find it kind of annoying that the whole he's gassed and I'm not is like your mantra for why things work when there isn't a paper to support it.

And well you have always said every argument needs real science not anecdotal evidence. This one is ok apparently cos ummmmm it suits you to use anecdotal evidence. Make up your mind and please... please stop using the idea that big guys take loads of gear as a line of argument for things they do not being applicable to general trainers.

[Phedder]

I guess what I'm saying is time under tension across an entire workout is more important than time under tension during each set so maybe think of it as 10 sets of 9 seconds TUT is the same as 3 sets of 30 seconds TUT. (depending on fiber type).

I assume you're meaning with the same weight on the bar? So not only TUT, but also the total tension is the same.

Nope, the whole point is you can go heavier with 3 rep sets thus cause more myotrauma and that this makes up for the reduced hypertrophy that would be stimulated from vascular occlusion.

Agreed then :nod: Same total Time Under Tension, but with a greater total tension leads to a greater overall stress, and adaptation.

[shane]

Well i'm confused which isn't hard for me :grin: Where do I get this information about hypertrophy etc. You sound like you know what your talking about Riccardo by the response from the others on this forum :clap: