Cardio question

[Ronin]

Just after some thoughts on my cardio for fat loss.

After the best part of a year on leangains I'm well used to training fasted, to the point that trying to train fed generally leaves me wanting to hurl. So when it came time to get serious about cutting cardio, I figured that adding it after weights and making it moderate intensity would be the go. My reasoning is that after a night of not eating, and nothing more than 2 coffees and a shake before training, 60-90 minutes of weights, I'd be hitting cardio with f*ck all glycogen. My understanding is that fasted cardio should be LISS rather than HIIT (although I know there are a lot of HIIT advocates here).

The option I'm tossing up now, is to take the morning shake (now with some oats blended in) to the gym, do my cardio first, then the shake before hitting the weights. Not sure though if there's any advantage to this approach, as either way it'll be fasted cardio. Any thoughts?

[JOSEF RAKICH]

Just after some thoughts on my cardio for fat loss.

After the best part of a year on leangains I'm well used to training fasted, to the point that trying to train fed generally leaves me wanting to hurl. So when it came time to get serious about cutting cardio, I figured that adding it after weights and making it moderate intensity would be the go. My reasoning is that after a night of not eating, and nothing more than 2 coffees and a shake before training, 60-90 minutes of weights, I'd be hitting cardio with f*ck all glycogen. My understanding is that fasted cardio should be LISS rather than HIIT (although I know there are a lot of HIIT advocates here).

The option I'm tossing up now, is to take the morning shake (now with some oats blended in) to the gym, do my cardio first, then the shake before hitting the weights. Not sure though if there's any advantage to this approach, as either way it'll be fasted cardio. Any thoughts?

Nutrient timing is completely irrelevant for improving body composition.

So consume the shake whenever you want it will not make one bit of difference, its completely up to you whether you want to do your cardio fasted or not. There is no benefits in doing so and there is no benefits in haven the shake first. Either is fine, just hit your macro targets and calorie requirements by the end of the day, however and whenever you want.

You will not burn any more fat doing fasted cardio compared to cardio in a feed state. During the cardio session you may, but taking a look at it from a 48 hour time period the fat loss will be equal as its all about calories in VS calories out. So if you did the cardio in a feed state then you would burn more fat later in the day (assuming calorie intake was equal in both scenarios).

[Grover]

in other words

You are eating too much!

[teamfatboy]

Nutrient timing is completely irrelevant for improving body composition.

So consume the shake whenever you want it will not make one bit of difference, its completely up to you whether you want to do your cardio fasted or not. There is no benefits in doing so and there is no benefits in haven the shake first. Either is fine, just hit your macro targets and calorie requirements by the end of the day, however and whenever you want.

You will not burn any more fat doing fasted cardio compared to cardio in a feed state. During the cardio session you may, but taking a look at it from a 48 hour time period the fat loss will be equal as its all about calories in VS calories out. So if you did the cardio in a feed state then you would burn more fat later in the day (assuming calorie intake was equal in both scenarios).

Jeepers, JR, those are pretty sweeping statements there.

It overlooks EPOC, for instance, which has a sound body of reputable research behind it, and the issue of where the energy is drawn from.

The results any individual may get may well differ, based on a vast range of factors including current body composition, training goals (strength, mass, speed, endurance), and others.

Ronin also mentioned doing cardio fasted, having a shake, and then doing weights - but my immediate reaction there would be whether the energy in a (presumably low-carb, since body-comp's the issue) shake would be sufficient for a work-out hard enough, in an already fatigued state, to sustain muscle mass, prevent catabolism or muscle damage.

Discuss :grin:

[Ronin]

Thanks TFB, I was hoping for some reasoned responses. :grin:

I don't completely disagree with Mr Rakich, my experience on Intermittent Fasting has convinced me that meal timing is "less relevant" (cf irrelevant), however I don't swing quite as far as he does. Not a firm believer in IIFYM for example. I come down somewhere between the two poles, when it comes to general training/conditioning.

However, when the aim is specifically cutting/recomp, I do believe that the body is too complex an organism to throw a one-size-fits-all solution at it. There is evidence to show that different types of cardio are more or less effective given the fed/fasted state.

For the record, the shake I was having before weights then cardio was straight whey with a tsp coffee, made in water. Switching to fasted cardio then a shake before weights, I added 1/4 cup of oats. Either way, training is followed immediately by another shake, then within 30 min oats and whey, before going on with the rest of the day's food.

[teamfatboy]

Most of my reading on nutrient timing is on loan (to a CrossFitter, but that's not important LOL) but two books worth a read:

Nutrient Timing, by John Ivy PhD and Robert Portman PhD, published by Basic Health Publications and

Better than Steroids by Dr Warren Willey

Carb Cycling by Dr Roman Malkov also has dome good advice

I haven't read Nutrient Timing for Peak Performance but it's on the stack...

I think that factors like age and gender also play a part, but I do know that in my own specific set of circumstances, nutrient timing has proven invaluable in altering body composition, just as it has in size or strength gains.

If it weren't important, and the 24-48 hour IIFYM rule applied, you could train like a freak all day fasted, throw down a huge bolus of food, go to sleep (if you didn't pass out first) and still make gains.

In your case, I'd be wondering whether a different source of carbs (rather than a slow-metabolising source like oats) might be worth considering.